In this exclusive interview, Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias makes it clear that the Syriza government will not be a passing phase and that Europe needs to learn to coexist with a different policy and vision. Mr. Kotzias underscores that relations with Italian Foreign Minister Paolo Gentiloni are very positive, expressing clear appreciation for the role Italy played during Athens’s negotiations with the European partners. The head of Greek diplomacy emphasized Greece’s intention to pay off its debts on time, as well as the need to change the policy that has been followed to date, so that the Greek economy can grow. With regard to the recent tensions, he denies ever threatening to flood Europe with refugees, stressing that he expressed fears that the destabilization processes under way might spur millions of people to migrate. With regard to Athens’s relations with Moscow and China, Mr. Kotzias refers clearly to Greece’s right to want to strengthen and intensify those relations, as Matteo Renzi does when he visits Russia, or as Angela Merkel does when she visits Beijing.
JOURNALIST: In a few days – on 8 April – Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras will carry out an official visit to Moscow. You recently stated that “the economic sanctions on Moscow lead to an impasse.” What is the Greek government’s goal with regard to this visit and, in general, with regard to relations with Russia?
N. KOTZIAS: When we use certain means in politics, the goal is to bring the other side to the negotiating table. We don’t believe that sanctions can be used to annihilate our collocutor or to destabilize our collocutor, because this might lead to a state of chaos. I remind you that, for many years, the West wagged its finger at Greece due to the decision to impose an embargo on FYROM.
Prime Minister Tsipras will travel to Russia with the desire to strengthen our cooperation with an important country – with regard to our foreign policy and our foreign trade. Right now, our imports from Russia are eight times our exports to Russia. We thus need to impart momentum to our economic and trade relations and also enhance our strong historical and cultural relations.
Moreover, based on an agreement signed by the previous Greek government, 2016 will be a year dedicated to Greek-Russian friendship, and we are working for the success of this initiative.
JOURNALIST: Bearing in mind the current stage in the negotiations between Greece and the Eurozone, might the strengthening of relations with Russia and China be aimed at increasing Moscow and Beijing’s investments in Greece?
N. KOTZIAS: I have met with the ambassadors of the EU countries and the ambassadors of the countries that collaborate closely with the EU. I explained to them that I think it is very odd that when President Renzi goes to Moscow or Chancellor Merkel visits Beijing, and when the majority of EU Foreign Ministers visit Russian and China for intergovernmental reasons, everyone thinks it’s normal and positive.
Every time Greece does what should be considered logical – that is, its endeavour to enhance its relations with the emerging markets or with the so-called non-Western countries – there are circles that react as if Greece were abandoning the West or wanted to engage in backstabbing.
There are mistaken stereotypes regarding what Greece is really doing, and there are certain strong actors in the West who believe that relations with China and Russia should be their exclusive advantage, and that smaller countries should keep their distance.
Greece maintains friendly relations with these countries and is linked to Russia by a strong cultural bond and a common religious and cultural tradition, while the Chinese believe that the Greeks are the people closest to them, given that China’s culture is the greatest in Asia, as Greece’s is in Europe.
I would also like to make the reminder that Greece was never a colonial country and has never acted violently towards these countries. If there is a country for which it would be natural to have relations with the BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa), it is Greece. There are thus interests that are attempting to create a negative image when Greece exercises what are the rights of every other country of the European Union.
JOURNALIST: What are your relations with your Italian counterpart, Paolo Gentiloni, and how do you assess the stance the Renzi government has maintained so far regarding the negotiations between Greece and the Eurogroup?
N. KOTZIAS: My relationship with Paolo Gentiloni is very positive. He is the colleague who sits next to me at the meetings of the EU Foreign Ministers, and he is the person who congratulated me first and encouraged me from the very outset. We have a relationship of friendship and mutual assistance.
Together with Italy, we have undertaken a joint initiative to safeguard the multi-faith and multicultural nature of the Middle East – and, by extension, the protection of the Christians – with the participation of the French, Dutch and Cypriots.
There will also be a second initiative, after the summer, on which there is already an agreement with Italy and China. Greek-Italian relations are good – I’m expressing my own opinion – because Italy played a positive role at critical moments in the debates. Obviously, we are aiming for greater cooperation.
JOURNALIST: Reuters reported that Greece has money to cover its expenses through 9 April. The Greek Minister of the Interior stated in his interview that there will be money to last half the month, while government spokesperson Sakellaridis stated that Athens will pay its creditors on time. How fragile is the situation, and how do you see the negotiations with the European partners?
N. KOTZIAS: I don’t believe that this situation needs to be difficult. I believe there are those who want to make the situation difficult. I think that, in certain cases, the manner in which Greece is confronted depends on intentions of a political nature.
Europe is a great historical institution, and one of its characteristics is that it provides support for the rules of law and in the search for compromises. I cannot imagine that there is someone who is violating the rules of law, which are positive with regard to Greece, or who wants to avert the creation of a positive compromise like the one we are seeking. There are two separate things that some individuals want to entangle: the debt and policy.
We say, “yes, we will pay what we owe within the deadlines, but the policy has to change so that the country and its economy can develop.” There are certain people who, upon hearing of a change in policy, falsely allege that we don’t want to pay, that we are lazy, or whatever comes to their mind.
We have to explain to public opinion in the large EU countries that a policy that has proven to be a failure should be changed, but this doesn’t mean we won’t honor our commitments. But there are those who are asking us to continue a disastrous policy. It’s like bringing a doctor to the house, she tells you to give poison to the patient, and because you refuse, she accuses you of not wanting to pay. It’s absurd.
JOURNALIST: You know Germany well and you have already visited Berlin twice. How do you see the relations between Greece and Germany? Do you really think the climate can be normalized?
N. KOTZIAS: First of all, we need to improve the climate in public opinion in the two countries. The Germans need to understand that we are neither thieves nor frauds, for the simple reason that they haven’t given a cent to Greece – but provided guarantees – and have made €80 billion.
I am referring to the 7-8 billion euros in their annual budget that come from the reduction in the interest on their bonds and from the equal gains that come from the reduction of interest rates on loans to large enterprises, which was between 8 and 5 percent and fell to 1-1.5 percent, to the gains distributed to Germany by the ECB from the Greek bonds that were purchased at very affordable prices on the secondary market.
And there is also the broader benefit from 200,000 Greek scientists who are working abroad, of whom 12,000 are doctors, and whose education was subsidized by the Greek state, like much else.
So we have to understand – and our German friends should understand – how much they have already gained, and that the Greeks are not wasteful or lazy.
Just as we Greeks need to try to avoid linking what is in my opinion legitimate criticism of German policies that are harmful to us with the characteristics of the German people; a very productive people with a great culture, and a people with whom we must maintain and develop friendly relations.
JOURNALIST: Two months after Syriza’s victory in Greece’s parliamentary elections, what do you think is the real room for maneuvering for a government of the left, like the Greek government, in the European framework?
N. KOTZIAS: The Greek people support the government, because they have seen what direction the first moves were made in, and they have realized that this government is standing tough and wants real negotiations.
The government has overcome, and is helping the Greek people to overcome, the sense of humiliation. In recent days I was in China and I talked to my Chinese counterpart and his associates about the sense of humiliation that China experienced from 1839 to 1948, during the “century of humiliation,” and everything that Greece has experienced over the past five years.
I think that all Europeans have realized that Syriza is not a passing phase, that it cannot be strangled within a few days – as someone mistakenly believed would be the case – and accordingly Europe should learn to coexist with a different policy and vision. And so I believe that this will be understood in other countries as well in a few months.
JOURNALIST: How concerned are you at the situation in Libya and the advance of ISIS, given that Greece, like Italy, is one of the most exposed countries?
N. KOTZIAS: My country is within the “triangle of instability” that can be drawn between the Russia-Ukraine border, Libya and the Middle East. Greece is characterized by stability, and this is where messages, “waves of stability,” albeit weak waves, emanate from, towards all of the regions of this triangle, while there is pressure on the sides of the triangle for this destabilization to spread throughout the triangle.
Accordingly, our friends should show greater prudence, because – as has already been understood on the other side of the Atlantic – it is in the international community’s interest for Greece to exert a stabilizing influence in this triangle, rather than being destabilized itself. I must say that, when I participated in my first meeting of EU Foreign Ministers, on 29 January, I discovered that Ukraine was their only concern.
It was the thirteenth of fifteen meetings on the Ukraine issue. In that case, no one was dealing with the South’s destabilization problems. I believe that I made my personal contribution on this issue, despite the fact that I was attacked by the Italian news media as well; news media that don’t want to read my statements carefully, even though I am usually very careful, speaking only rarely.
I underscored the threat to the stability of Europe coming from the South, the emerging problem of the jihadists, and I highlighted at a meeting in Paris that the difference between the North and the South lies in the fact that the North’s destabilization problem, due to the rift that has been created in Ukraine, continues to be a foreign policy problem, while the problem of the destabilization of the triangle I described is, in a sense, not just a foreign policy issue, but an internal problem as well. And this is shown by the terrorist attacks in Brussel, in Paris and in Copenhagen.
JOURNALIST: You denied the reports from certain European media outlets that you stated that you intended to open the borders and send would-be terrorists to the rest of Europe.
N. KOTZIAS: These really are ridiculous and false reports. I said something else. I stated an analysis, stressing that if we continue to destabilize a region that extends from Russia’s borders with Ukraine to the Western Balkans, the Middle East, North Africa and, in the future, to countries like Greece, the results will be negative. Because if this whole region is destabilized, the movements of millions of migrants will have to be confronted.
This is different from alleging that I am willing to send them. In my analysis, I pointed out why we need to stabilize the whole region: so that these negative repercussions for Europe can’t exist.
I said that we need to work for stabilization, because otherwise we will have millions of migrants that Europe will be unable to absorb. And I have many doubts and concerns regarding how the jihadists will infiltrate these migration waves. Eleven million migrants have already arrived from Syria, due to the civil war. No one can dispute this.
Just as it is indisputable that there is an influx of migrants from Libya into Italy. Equally indisputable is the fact that the terrorist attacks in Brussels, Paris and Copenhagen were carried out by jihadists who had returned from these fronts. It is ridiculous to say that if someone identifies the problem, he is also at the source of the problem.
April 3, 2015