JOURNALIST: You accompanied the Greek Prime Minister on his recent official visit to Egypt. On the margins of this visit, you gave an interview to the Al Qaheera television channel, if I am correct, and you also referred to Greek-Turkish relations.
The two countries are, as you stated, in a process of rapprochement, of resetting a sincerer relationship. Your Turkish counterpart said the same thing. Especially with respect to the Cyprus Issue, he mentioned that Türkiye is honest regarding the issue, its stance and the relations between the two countries and expressed the hope that the Greek side also demonstrates the same sincerity.
Thus, the first question posed here is whether preparatory discussions, that will constitute the basis of a political dialogue are underway.
G. GERAPETRITIS: As the Prime Minister underscored following the meeting of the delegations in Vilnius, on the sidelines of the NATO Summit. Given that geography renders us neighbours, we are currently attempting to build a relationship of mutual appreciation and trust. It is not a simple task considering that the existing disputes are extremely complex and crucial especially in light of the history that often burdens neighbourly relations. On the other hand, I believe that it is very important to make avail of this, allow me to say, historical opportunity: two governments with recent legitimacy and hence a robust political capital, and a willingness on both sides, at least as expressed by the political leaderships, for a sincere approach. I would like to point out that we have developed a very good personal relationship with my Turkish counterpart Mr. Fidan and we are in regular contact.
JOURNALIST: Will you meet? Is there anything on the timetable you could tell us about?
G. GERAPETRITIS: We currently have two milestones. The first one is the General Assembly of the United Nations in New York in mid-September, where delegations will meet with the leaderships, i.e. the Heads of Government. The second one concerns the High-Level Cooperation Council between Greece and Türkiye, which will convene at the end of the year with an expanded composition with a significant number of Ministers. Understandably, the Ministries of Foreign Affairs will conduct preparatory work ahead of these important meetings and discussions. We, as Foreign Ministers, have assumed the overall responsibility for organizing this and therefore we are both accountable and responsible for the progress of this work. We are likely that we have a meeting with my Turkish counterpart even before the United Nations General Assembly, precisely to set the timetable, i.e. the basis for the discussion and our next steps.
JOURNALIST: Which will take place where, if at all?
G. GERAPETRITIS: This is something that has not yet been clarified. However, what I can tell you is that at the moment, the good, sincere relationship that has been developed, has allowed us to resolve some of the issues that arise, for which the central governments are not always responsible, so that the situation can be de-escalated, thus avoiding resort to verbal attacks or other forms of tensions.
JOURNALIST: What is Greece discussing? In other words, you have stated that we have a very significant difference, being the EEZ and the continental shelf. Hence, I wonder whether the negotiations, particularly on the EEZ issue, can bilaterally include other issues, for example an agreement similar to the one with Egypt, instead of referring to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, for which I know very well that our country's position is very clear and consistent.
G. GERAPETRITIS: The fact is that Greece and Türkiye have one fundamental dispute, which is the sole dispute that can be brought before international jurisdiction. And that is the delimitation of the maritime zones, namely the Exclusive Economic Zone and the continental shelf. For this to happen, given the fact that Türkiye is not a signatory to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea and does not accept the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice in The Hague, a special agreement must be signed defining the scope of the dispute. Our intention is to address this important underlying dispute as well. I would like to underline the following: It is very, important for us to continue on the path of the last months, which is a path of détente and tranquility in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean.
As of now, we have neither the verbal confrontations of the recent past nor the airspace violations we experienced for decades. At the moment, there is a considerable tranquility and peace. This allows us not only to discuss current operational issues, - but also to ensure a longer-term peace in our region, which is a significant achievement as such. But we are also given this significant opportunity to discuss the major issues and, in particular, the issues that pertain to this delimitation.
JOURNALIST: Coming back to the issue of the delimitation. However, I see that you are focusing very much on the discussions and the positive climate. You are heavily criticized by the opposition that you do not believe in meaningful dialogue that could lead to a broader agreement with Türkiye and that there is a hidden agenda.
G. GERAPETRITIS: I want to confess to you that I was very clear both before the Parliament, where I appeared for my first statements as Minister of Foreign Affairs, as well as in the briefing I gave to all the leaders of the parliamentary political parties and also during the parliamentary scrutiny. It is my intention everything should be done in a completely clear, totally open manner and be brought to the knowledge of and, if possible, in agreement with Greece’s parliamentary parties. This is a firm position of mine that I will continue to serve consistently. We strongly support consultations and we are willing to discuss, so that we can find beneficial solutions, looking not at the past, but above all at the future. We want to leave an important legacy for future generations, and that legacy will, in fact, be a peaceful neighbourhood.
JOURNALIST: Please clarify this point, because it may be misinterpreted. Is there any chance you will make some concessions in midst of this tranquility in order to ensure a calm climate in the future?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Since the issue has been raised and I have answered it very clearly, thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify it. I believe that the Prime Minister's statement was absolutely clear and I believe that it is in line with the firm positions of Greek foreign policy and our national positions. There is absolutely no possibility, not just to make concessions, but not even to raise issues for discussion that touch upon national sovereignty. Sovereignty is unified, indivisible: it cannot be fragmented in any way and therefore it is not on the agenda. Therefore, issues pertinent to territorial waters or, obviously, to the sovereignty of the islands and to their demilitarization cannot be discussed under any circumstances. On the other hand, it is obvious that when you are at the negotiating table there may be some divergences from the basic negotiating positions, but these divergences can in no way concern issues of sovereignty issues that may harm our national interests.
JOURNALIST: What could they concern?
G. GERAPETRITIS: This will be something that you will allow me to raise primarily before the Parliament and with the Political Leaders. When it comes to discussions and agreements of national importance, it is not always good to be completely open in public discourse. But any issue to be discussed, will be brought before the Parliament. What I want to assure you and the Greek people is that there will never be any deviation from our national positions or sovereignty.
JOURNALIST: I asked you earlier if the extension of our territorial waters is something you are considering. It has been said in the past: Is it something that Greek diplomacy is examining in terms of the dispute that we have with Türkiye at the moment?
G. GERAPETRITIS: The issues of territorial waters, as I stated previously, are issues of national sovereignty.
JOURNALIST: Therefore?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Greece strictly maintains the right granted by International Law and, in particular, the Law of the Sea, to extend its territorial waters to 12 nautical miles. This right will be exercised when deemed politically and nationally beneficial and to this end it reserves the right to do so, always in agreement with our National Delegation.
JOURNALIST: Is the Hague Court the only way to resolve disputes, especially those of the EEZ and continental shelf? I will tell you why. Allow me to read a part of your interview on the Egyptian channel: the agreement on the delimitation of our EEZ with Egypt, “was an important agreement, not only because it essentially resolved a major issue that will allow the two countries to further develop their resources of wealth, but also because this is the pattern to follow: by discussions, negotiations, mutual compromises and eventually reaching a win-win situation for both countries.”
Could this also happen with Türkiye? That is, to follow this pattern, resolve the dispute bilaterally, instead of referring it to the Hague Court.
G. GERAPETRITIS: You are right to point this out, it is exactly what happens according to International Law and practice. Countries that share maritime boundaries, should exhaust the negotiation procedures before resorting to international jurisdiction, such as the International Court of Justice in The Hague or the Hamburg Court. The ideal scenario would indeed be an agreement between the neighbouring states, as was the case with Egypt, where we had an agreement, which is not only beneficial because it delimits the maritime zones and therefore eliminates a point of constant confrontation, but also because it upgrades the relationship between the two countries to that of strategic partners. In other words, such a bilateral agreement precisely highlights that the two countries can discuss, and I believe this is now confirmed by the strategic nature of our relationship with Egypt.
With Türkiye due to the clearly divergent positions on key issues, I believe that referring the issue of the delimitation of our Exclusive Economic Zone and continental shelf to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, on the basis of a special agreement indicating the exclusive subject of the dispute.
JOURNALIST: Your Turkish counterpart, Mr. Fidan, has once again made it clear that Ankara's position on the Cyprus issue is very clear: they consider the recognition of sovereign equality as a national cause. What does that mean? Essentially, we are talking about two states, about division. This is a thorny issue. Türkiye and Greece are clear on that. And you? What does Greece say? That it is not a question of two countries, Greece and Türkiye, but it is a question of Europe and Türkiye?
G. GERAPETRITIS: I believe that there has been an escalating rhetoric on the part of Türkiye in recent times, regarding the creation of two states. This is something that Greek foreign policy will not tolerate because it is contrary to the basic principles of international law and more precisely to the UN Security Council's fundamental Resolutions referring to a bizonal, bicommunal federation. The Greek position is that the solution to the Cyprus issue should be one state, with one sovereignty, on the basis of a bicommunal bizonal federal model, which should be viable and effective.
JOURNALIST: Let us turn to the case of F. Beleri, the Mayor of Himarë, and how it has affected Greek-Albanian relations. Where are we at the moment? Are we talking about a deterioration that many consider a given? What are the next steps for our country?
G. GERAPETRITIS: First of all, it should be noted that before we get to the next steps, we should mention what has already been done and there are many things that have been done.
JOURNALIST: You also had a difficult telephone call with your counterpart.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Actually, I had two difficult ones. What happened in Himarë is that the then mayoral candidate Fredi Beleri was arrested two days before the elections on charges of alleged vote buying and bribery.
Ever since, he has been held in pre-trial detention, meaning that he is being provisionally detained. There have been no final trials, but there have been court decisions rejecting his requests to be released. At the same time, while he has been elected mayor, he is not allowed to be sworn in and assume his duties, since the Albanian side refuses to allow him to take the oath inside the prison or grant him a special permit to take the oath outside the prison. There are, in essence, two dimensions to this issue: the political and the legal one. The first concerns his pre-trial detention, which we consider to be unlawful, since it violates the Rule of Law, and breaches the presumption of innocence. The second dimension is that he cannot assume his duties even though he has already been elected. Therefore, as we speak, he is being denied the right to assume his duties, even though he enjoys legitimacy granted by the people of Himarë.
What have we done about these matters?
JOURNALIST: And why are they turning a deaf ear to all this? To the violation, to the complaints? On the European side, I think Mr. Schinas sent a very stern letter to the Commissioner for Enlargement, as Albania pursues an accession path. Why is it currently turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to all this and proceeding in this way? I don’t know if you can provide an explanation and tell us what measures you are expected to take.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Of course, I think the Albanian side is currently invoking the principle of the independence of the judiciary. This is an ongoing procedure, including criminal charges, and the procedure is pending before the Albanian criminal courts. On the other hand, what is reportedly true is that despite the significant efforts not only for the release, but also for the oath taking, there is no positive response from the Albanian side. The Greek Government has taken very important initiatives from the very first moment. And you rightly said that all this is leading to an escalating tension in our relationship. If you allow me a more illustrative expression, the way in which the Albanian side acts is rather as if it shoots itself in the foot.
Firstly, the Prime Minister of Greece himself raised the issue with his Albanian counterpart in a particularly stern tone, on the sidelines of the NATO Summit in Vilnius, making it clear that the Albanian side’s insistence on not taking the necessary steps for Mr. Beleri' s release and, above all, not proceeding with the swearing-in, which could lead to Mr. Beleri’s possible removal from office, would lead to a serious deterioration of our bilateral relations.
Secondly, at the level of Community institutions, I myself, had the opportunity to have a series of important meetings in Brussels, such as with the Secretary General of NATO, Mr. Stoltenberg, Mr. Várhelyi, who is responsible for the enlargement of the European Union, and the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the European Parliament, Mr. McAllister. They are all involved, either directly or indirectly, in the issue of Albania's accession process to the European Union. I conveyed to them in person, in a very stern tone, the message that there is no way that Albania's EU accession process may proceed, while such a contempt for the Rule of Law, the presumption of innocence and political rights is being observed.
As you rightly said, I spoke twice with my Albanian counterpart. I raised the issues both of his release from prison and the possibility of swearing-in, taking into consideration that in most legal systems it is permitted both to vote and take oath while in prison.
She had a positive attitude towards these issues, but we haven’t had any tangible results. Therefore, I considered that there was no willingness on the part of the Albanian side to take any active initiative and for this reason, last week I sent a particularly stern letter to all the Foreign Ministers of the EU Member States and to the High Representative for Foreign Policy of the European Union, Mr. Josep Borrell. In this letter, I emphasized that from the Greek Government's side this constitutes a serious impediment to Albania's progress towards the European family. And I believe that this tone will continue. May I also point out two more things, if you allow me: there is the letter that you’ve already mentioned from the Vice-President of the European Commission, Mr. Margaritis Schinas, and there is also an amendment put forward by the European People's Party and the MEPs of New Democracy that has been approved by the European Parliament. The Albanian side's anti-rule-of-law stance is now explicitly stated in a legal document of the European Parliament, which will apparently be evaluated.
Now, if you want me to say a word about the next steps…
JOURNALIST: I wonder if you will cut off, if you will impose a block and freeze the funds to Tirana. Is this something you are contemplating and of course, what about the issue of the EEZ on the Greece-Albania boundary?
G. GERAPETRITIS: The issue of the delimitation of the Exclusive Economic Zone is entirely separate and is certainly not related to the Beleri case, but we understand that the tension…
JOURNALIST: But it could be affecting relations between the two countries at the moment.
G. GERAPETRITIS: The tension that arises is not beneficial at all, primarily for Albania, because whether Albania likes it or not, Greece is the powerful actor in the region. I would like to remind you that Greece has been the country that advocated for the Western Balkan countries’ accession to the European Union, and it still retains this stance. Therefore, Greece has a catalytic role in Western Balkan states’ accession to the European family. So, it is not in the best interest of the Albanian side to do such a thing; I am clear on that. Significant documents and evaluations relating to Albania are on the way, and in October there will be a report on the progress of Albania's path towards the European Union, so that the accession chapters can be opened. Under these circumstances, we all understand that Albania's path to the EU is paved with thorns.
JOURNALIST: There is not much time left, because, as you said, it takes place in October and, at least in terms of politics and diplomacy this is not a long time. You said that Greece is a powerful player. The country's diplomacy has produced these results over a long period of time. So, will you continue to follow the same policy for the next four years?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Greek foreign policy, is based on a fundamental national position: respect for International Law. We have a substantial advantage: we are a country committed to the International Law and we advocate for it. This, combined with a multifaceted foreign policy and public diplomacy, has allowed us to have very strong regional and international partners.
I don't think we would have ever imagined that, on the initiative of Greek governments, it would have been possible to adopt fundamental policies of the European Union, such as the Recovery and Reconstruction Fund and the European digital health certificate. Initiatives which emanated from this government and which have consolidated our position as a major player in Europe.
On the other hand, alliances have been developed, which are critical to our national strategic interests, such as the one with Egypt, with Israel, with all the powerful regional players in the Eastern Mediterranean and our wider region.
JOURNALIST: I see. Minister, thank you very much.
G. GERAPETRITIS: It was a great pleasure. Thank you very much.
JOURNALIST: It was a great honor to have you in your first interview. Take care. Thank you very much. This was "Syndeseis" show, ladies and gentlemen, with the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
August 9, 2023