M. ANASTASOPOULOU: At this point, we will bid good morning to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Nikos Dendias. Welcome, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning.
D. OIKONOMOU: Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning to you and to your viewers.
D. OIKONOMOU: Let us begin with the self-evident, Minister. Many people who have not been following these affairs very closely are asking why this agreement is historic and very important, as you and your Italian colleague characterised it.
N. DENDIAS: As did the Prime Minister.
D. OIKONOMOU: As did the Prime Minister.
N. DENDIAS: I believe we all worked together to enlarge Greece. We acquired...
D. OIKONOMOU: We enlarged Greece, you say?
N. DENDIAS: An endeavour undertaken, honestly, by many people, for 40 years, four decades, and completed now. And I think that enlarging your homeland and its rights and bequeathing this to the next generations is an exceptional accomplishment. One could look at the smaller picture, what rights we have, what we secured, but the big picture is that our country's limits have grown. Our territory has grown.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Minister, could this agreement serve as a precedent or pave the way for other agreements? For instance, with Albania?
N. DENDIAS: We will recommence talks with Albania. We had reached an agreement with Albania in 2009, which was annulled by the Constitutional Court of Albania and, unfortunately, annulled unanimously. I have read the judgment. Greece has an aspiration: to reach agreements with all its neighbours within the context of international law. All of them. Including Turkey. And to delimit economic zones for the benefit of societies and peoples. We will continue on the path we have been following from the outset. Because this is the second agreement signed under the Mitsotakis government. The first, to remind you, is not directly related to this, it was a defence agreement with the United States. That was also a major agreement. It closed a different framework. In this case, we are opening a huge chapter which our country had not been able to open, despite efforts over decades.
D. OIKONOMOU: So, what are the next steps, Minister? Is it Albania, which, as you say, is now being approached on a different basis...
N. DENDIAS: The very next step is the visit to Egypt on the 18th.
D. OIKONOMOU: What are the expectations there, at present?
N. DENDIAS: The same - to reach an agreement, at some point. I don't know whether that will be tomorrow or at a later date, if I will be fortunate enough to sign...
D. OIKONOMOU: So, could a conclusion be reached during this visit? Is this likely?
N. DENDIAS: No, it is too soon. I do not want to be — and we must not be — overoptimistic.
D. OIKONOMOU: That is what you said about Italy, but you took us by surprise.
N. DENDIAS: I did not. We worked on Italy for a year. Lately, and let me be honest, many people working under the Secretary General of the Ministry, Mr Demiris, worked 14- and 15-hour days. I can't remember the last time the Special Legal Department of the Ministry rested on a weekend.
D. OIKONOMOU: As far as Egypt is concerned, could you explain what the obstacle is? Because we have heard of the subject of Kastelorizo where the Egyptians are raising an issue. Is that all there is?
N. DENDIAS: No, they are not raising Kastelorizo as an issue. The Egyptians try not to involve themselves in parallel issues facing other countries in the region; that is the position taken by their bureaucracy. To put it colloquially, they would prefer, where possible, to avoid stepping on Turkey’s toes.
D. OIKONOMOU: But then, you are saying that this agreement would step on Turkey's toes.
N. DENDIAS: By necessity, this agreement will contradict, if and no matter how we conclude it, a different agreement...
D. OIKONOMOU: We see that, for instance, Minister, in the case of a hypothetical agreement with Egypt, this map would border on the supposed Turkish-Libyan agreement. Is that not so?
N. DENDIAS: The Turkish-Libyan agreement — and let us be frank, the Turks know this, too — is a fabrication which would be dismissed at any law school during the first month of studies, not even the first year.
D. OIKONOMOU: Yes, but it is there. It is a concern.
N. DENDIAS: It is certainly a concern.
D. OIKONOMOU: It bothers us.
N. DENDIAS: It is certainly a concern, but in terms of the law and international law, it is absolutely arbitrary and that is why it has been condemned by all sides. Not a single country says it is legitimate.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: We will touch on that, but let us remain focused on Egypt. Your goal, Minister, the goal of the Greek government is an agreement with Egypt, even if this is a staggered agreement?
N. DENDIAS: When you cannot resolve the overall matter and it is beneficial to resolve a part -in the context of examining what kind of agreement this is- it is something you could discuss. After all, as you know, it is often important to take a first step. However, there is a basis for discussion with Egypt. It is a friendly country and recently, under the Mitsotakis government, we have grown particularly close. We belong to a group of states that share more or less the same outlook on the region.
D. OIKONOMOU: In practice, would such an agreement annul the memorandum signed between Turkey and Tripoli?
N. DENDIAS: Well, certainly. It would create a tremendous problem, even concerning the logic of its existence, because it has no legal existence, it is non-existent and, beyond that, because it is self-evident that they would absolutely overlap and one would be legal and the other would be absolutely illegal and absurd — and, as you might well understand, things would not be simple. That is why Turkey is overbidding towards Egypt, and you should be aware of that. Turkey is telling the Egyptians: “we will give you 30%, 40% more than what the Greeks are giving you”.
D. OIKONOMOU: To conclude an agreement with them.
N. DENDIAS: Because it is certainly easy for the Turks. They are offering hot air, so it's easy to make all manner of promises. And they “gave” -in quotation marks- things to the Libyans, because it is all a fabrication.
D. OIKONOMOU: It is a fabrication, Minister, but it is a reality that is of intense concern to us.
N. DENDIAS: Absolutely.
D. OIKONOMOU: They are disputing our sovereign rights.
N. DENDIAS: Absolutely.
D. OIKONOMOU: You saw that there is a possibility they might go south of Crete. They go east of our islands, Rhodes, Kasos, Karpathos, etc. – arbitrarily there as well.
N. DENDIAS: Absolutely.
D. OIKONOMOU: They are saying they will send drills there, too.
N. DENDIAS: Absolutely. And we want to reach an understanding with our Turkish neighbours. No Greek government, especially not the Mitsotakis government, will allow any dispute whatsoever of its national rights. No government would have the right to do so. All governments swear on the Constitution, which clearly provides for this case.
D. OIKONOMOU: You mean, if we are challenged?
N. DENDIAS: If Turkey believes it can pressure Greece into relinquishing its national interests that are established and lawful under international law, it is making a grave error.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: This means that if a Turkish survey vessel or drill ship were to enter the Greek continental shelf, what would Greece do, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: Greece would defend its legitimate interests. Nothing more, nothing less.
D. OIKONOMOU: So, we could reach a point where...
N. DENDIAS: We could not do otherwise, anyway.
D. OIKONOMOU: A couple of days ago, Mr Panagiotopoulos said that things could even reach a military engagement. Is the country at this stage?
N. DENDIAS: I am certain that Mr Panagiotopoulos, with whom I enjoy excellent and close cooperation, did not say that Greece is seeking a military engagement. We would not want that.
D. OIKONOMOU: Clearly.
N. DENDIAS: We are the most peaceful country there is. What we want is to emerge from the economic crisis, to see our society and our economy grow. To be honest, we want the same for Turkey, as well. We are not the aggressors in the region — and we have demonstrated this.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: But, if it proves necessary, will it come to pass?
N. DENDIAS: It is our constitutional obligation to defend our national interests. We have no choice. We don't have two options before us and get to pick one.
D. OIKONOMOU: So, you are telling us that this is the only path.
N. DENDIAS: Every Greek government throughout history has faced this constitutional obligation, and every government has borne it.
D. OIKONOMOU: Can we open channels of communication with Turkey, Minister? At present, we are in a very tight spot. Turkey continually disputes everything, continuously provokes us, every day, in both word and deed. We see this truly sad appearance of Mr Erdoğan, I mean it politically, in that sense, what we are seeing here.
N. DENDIAS: I would not want to characterise the President of Turkey. He is the leader of a country, I respect his role and his country, and I hope we can find common ground for talks. It is a shame that two neighbouring countries, which could develop a sea of peace and cooperation, are unable to come to an understanding — and there is one party responsible for this, let us be honest. Turkey does not cooperate.
D. OIKONOMOU: Do you speak to Mr Çavuşoğlu, your counterpart?
N. DENDIAS: I have said this openly. Mr Çavuşoğlu and I have had a long relationship for years.
D. OIKONOMOU: An old relationship.
N. DENDIAS: I still have this relationship.
D. OIKONOMOU: What about now?
N. DENDIAS: This relationship was not broken off just because we became Ministers of Foreign Affairs.
D. OIKONOMOU: Talking on friendly terms is a different matter. What I am asking is whether you are talking on political terms about the issues that concern us.
N. DENDIAS: Mr Çavuşoğlu is entrenched in a policy with which Greece finds it hard to communicate.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: So, are you delivering simultaneous monologues?
N. DENDIAS: That’s not how I would put it, but it would not be an inaccurate statement. I would try to find a more constructive way of describing what you just said.
D. OIKONOMOU: Where do you believe Turkey is heading? Will it continue in the same spirit? Does it find the current climate favourable? Because the professors who spoke previously explained to us that what is currently going on in the United States is playing a role. There is instability there, there is concern, there is tension. Perhaps this is the end for President Trump, one cannot know. Therefore, perhaps Turkey is trying to take advantage of the momentum.
N. DENDIAS: The US pre-election period is always fraught with risks, because there is no country capable of intervening. Of course, the US is not the only powerful country, there are other powerful countries as well. The European Union is a powerful entity, France is a very powerful country. In a couple of days, I will be visiting Paris to attend the Council of Ministers, together with my French counterpart, to discuss Turkish provocations, an issue raised by Greece.
D. OIKONOMOU: You will be heading there the day after tomorrow.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, but we will be together. We will be on the same side. We will be sharing a monitor, sitting together, to address the issue of Turkey's provocations.
D. OIKONOMOU: That is the subject of the Meeting.
N. DENDIAS: Not the only subject, but it will be discussed, among others. All sides must be aware of the symbolism involved. And France is a very powerful country. In this sense, I am saying that there are many countries what would like to see international legality be observed. These are not countries that like Greece or dislike Turkey. We do not dislike Turkey either. What we are asking for is legality. And what is it we want to defend? Our rights, as conferred by international law. And we have said this, Mr Mitsotakis has said this repeatedly, to Turkey: “Do you disagree? That’s perfectly fine. Let’s go, there are procedures for resolving disputes.”
D. OIKONOMOU: Like The Hague?
N. DENDIAS: The Hague could be such an avenue, conditionally. What cannot be the case is “might is right”, as Turkey comprehends it, where I push past you and get my way. That simply cannot be the case.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: So, the scenario of Greece and Turkey sitting together at a table and discussing any issues they have is very distant at present?
N. DENDIAS: It does not seem likely at present.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Under what conditions could this take place, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: Under conditions of rationalisation of Turkish policy, of submission to the rules. You know, when we engage in talks, we don't talk generally and vaguely. We hold talks within a framework. And what is this framework? The framework is international law, the framework is the Law of the Sea, the framework is the UN Security Council, as far as the Cyprus issue is concerned. That’s the framework. We don’t hold talks outside this framework. It is not a presentation where each party says what they want to say and we reach a conclusion at the end.
D. OIKONOMOU: Yes, but Turkey is trying to create precedents and a fait accompli, Minister. There are breaches and violations every day.
N. DENDIAS: We are aware of that.
D. OIKONOMOU: Our islands are being disputed.
N. DENDIAS: That’s right. Just as you say.
D. OIKONOMOU: Constantly. There are disputes of our sovereignty. They want to draw us to a table after they have filled this table up...
N. DENDIAS: But that is precisely why we are not joining under any conditions, and that is why it’s so difficult a job, otherwise it would have been accomplished. However, we have to strive. We have to keep our composure and continue trying. But, to clarify — so as not to cause a misunderstanding, which would be bad — national rights, as provided for under international law, are non-negotiable. Furthermore, we want nothing that comes under Turkey's rights.
D. OIKONOMOU: What are we discussing with Turkey? The matter we were discussing in the past? The continental shelf? Is that our problem? What are we discussing?
N. DENDIAS: The main dispute between Greece and Turkey is the continental shelf. That is true. Of course, since then, the Law of the Sea has evolved, other institutions have been established, such as exclusive economic zones...
D. OIKONOMOU: That's what we are saying. Is what we have been saying since then realistic? Or are things developing dynamically?
N. DENDIAS: I believe that if we were to solve the issue of the continental shelf, then a number of other ancillary issues - if they exist, because it is my view that much of what Turkey says is fabrications and, as you say, it says these things just to put them on the table. I have told them during various interventions on my part that we can also put issues on the table. It isn't that simple.
D. OIKONOMOU: But we don't raise issues, nor do we draw maps.
N. DENDIAS: That’s not the case. We can raise them; we simply do not wish to exacerbate the situation. Even with Evros, you remember a story attributed to me regarding a few metres.
D. OIKONOMOU: Certainly.
N. DENDIAS: Their reading of the situation was completely backwards. What I said was that the riverbed has cut off parts towards Turkey, which have to be taken into account, because these do not belong to Turkey as the situation stands. And, if I may, the Treaty of Lausanne — despite what Turkey is trying to say — the Treaty of Lausanne stipulates that islands within 3 miles of the coast belong to Turkey. There are certain small islands lying beyond 3 miles that Turkey says belong to it. If we all start saying such things... There is the Akkuyu nuclear power plant. Turkey has not held discussions with anyone in the region. If this plant were to explode tomorrow morning, would Turkey be the only one affected? Therefore, there are numerous issues. And let me tell you something else: there is the Sea of Marmara, there is the Montreux Convention, there are the IMO Regulations. Turkey may have violated regulations in the Sea of Marmara.
Shall we put it all on the table?
D. OIKONOMOU: Minister, with your permission, let us take a break. We would also like to discuss Hagia Sophia and what Turkey is doing on that level.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: We also have a question on whether a road is being paved towards the expansion of territorial waters in the Ionian Sea, and we would like a clear answer.
Minister, we'll be right back.
N. DENDIAS: Certainly.
[…]
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Minister, we were discussing the array of Turkish provocations which is perhaps wider than ever before. The Aegean Sea, daily flyovers, daily violations...
N. DENDIAS: There was a gap...
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: There was a gap for a few days.
N. DENDIAS: Which, sadly, did not last.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: On the other hand, we have the Government Gazette issues concerning the plots where they want to conduct surveys, next to Greek islands. So, we have a specific question: Are you concerned about an episode being caused in the immediate future or immediately after the summer?
N. DENDIAS: What I would like to express, and what I always express, is a hope that all sides act in a manner that is rational and useful for their countries and societies. And as I staunchly believe that the interest of Turkish society and of Turkey lies in a good relationship with Greece, I hope that no one on the Turkish side acts irrationally. That’s as far as we can go.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Greece is prepared even for an unfavourable scenario, as you told us earlier.
N. DENDIAS: That is clear. Every country has to be prepared for the worst, as well. However, every country must also hope and act for the best.
D. OIKONOMOU: Before the break, we said we would touch upon the provocations concerning the matter of Hagia Sophia which, as is well known, is not an issue or a dispute between Greece and Turkey, but we see that the Turkish President insists on a situation... on restoring the pre-Kemal Ataturk state of play as regards Hagia Sophia, to convert it back into a mosque, thus disputing Kemal himself. However, that is not a concern of ours; what we are interested in is Hagia Sophia.
N. DENDIAS: Let me say this: Hagia Sophia belongs neither to the Greeks nor to the Turks. It is a global cultural heritage monument, it is an ark for Christianity and for Orthodoxy, an ark for the universal human spirit and its achievements. That’s what Hagia Sophia is — an enormous monument...
D. OIKONOMOU: Can it change its status unilaterally?
N. DENDIAS: It is a tremendous boon for Turkey that this monument lies within its territory. And President Erdoğan and those in Turkey who take such a petty, fatuous view of the situation are being unfair. You know, Atatürk was no fool when he chose this solution to the problem. Atatürk had a perception of affairs, of how to bring Turkey closer to the West and to the modern world. And that was his goal when he turned Hagia Sophia into a monument. He did not do it because he liked the Greeks or Christianity or Orthodoxy. He did it because it was in the well-intended interest of Turkey. In my modest opinion — as I cannot advise Turkey — the interest of Turkey would be served in the same manner today. And I believe — if they are interested in hearing a thought — that this is what Turkey should do: preserve this incredible piece of architecture, this extraordinary church, as a monument.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Two further questions regarding yesterday's agreement. Following the signatures, are we closer, Minister, to the extension of the territorial waters in the Ionian Sea from 6 to 12 nautical miles?
N. DENDIAS: We have satisfied a prerequisite. The extension of territorial waters, not just in the Ionian Sea, but also in the Libyan Sea, the Cretan Sea, the Carpathian Sea and the Aegean Sea, is always a right of Greece. It is our sovereign right, we can exercise it at any time – let us be clear on this point.
D. OIKONOMOU: Yes, but there is a casus belli from the other side.
N. DENDIAS: I think that is an irrational thought which, if I may, Greece does not heed. After all, it is inconsistent with the Charter of the United Nations. There can be no threat of war in the modern world.
D. OIKONOMOU: But one might ask “why haven't we done this all these years?”
N. DENDIAS: Because Greece weighs its interests and its relations with other countries. Turkey is not the sole issue, let us be clear on this. There are various countries with their views. The Aegean Sea is a crossing, it leads to many regions. Greece does not want to disrupt or encumber its relations with a number of other countries. However, it has its sovereign rights. When and how it exercises them is its own right. It is not up for discussion.
D. OIKONOMOU: Do we have to exercise these simultaneously, Minister? In other words, we are discussing the Ionian Sea, we concluded this agreement with Italy and we can take this step. Should we do this in the Aegean Sea too or not?
N. DENDIAS: It is our right to do so wherever we please, even in a restricted area, for instance, around Paxos. That's what we please.
D. OIKONOMOU: Without giving rise to other situations.
N. DENDIAS: It is our own right, it is our sovereign right; it an expression of our sovereignty.
D. OIKONOMOU: You say this due to locality. Wherever we please, whenever we please, however we please.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: A last question concerning Evros: the government said with regard to the fence issue, that it is a matter of months until it is completed. After the events that took place in March, are you afraid that Erdoğan could attempt, at that specific point, either via the river or on land, a rematch?
N. DENDIAS: It was a tremendous failure and mistake on the part of Turkey to attempt to create migration flows. Violation of human rights, call it what you will, and ultimately it was fruitless. Turkey is forcing Greece to build a fence because, let us be frank, we are not at all certain that Turkey won't try again.
D. OIKONOMOU: But we want this fence; we aren't being forced to erect it. It is our choice.
N. DENDIAS: There is no way to deal with this volume of human flows that Turkey is manipulating. Historically, I was not in favour of fences, let me be clear. I do not believe that they are necessary under self-evident, normal conditions. But what else is there to do here? On the other hand, though, Turkey is making a mistake. It is also making a mistake with regard to Evros — and the fact that it is making a mistake is impressive. Pieces of land have become detached from the Greek side and have become affixed to the Turkish side over the years. And this, you know, must be remeasured. And we have told Turkey this, I told them.
D. OIKONOMOU: But the borders are specific, laid down, they can't be shifted willy-nilly.
N. DENDIAS: The borders, certainly, because the borders are the old demarcation line, the Evros riverbed of 1926. However, as the Evros River changes, it pushes soil from one side...
D. OIKONOMOU: Some to and some there.
N. DENDIAS: You know, the Turks were sly. They carry out projects, using cement etc. We have to remeasure all this. We have to reach an understanding.
D. OIKONOMOU: A misunderstanding had occurred regarding a statement you had made at the time...
N. DENDIAS: Misunderstandings often occur in Greece, you know. We are quick to accuse one of betrayal, of being less patriotic, etc. I am used to all this. In fact, if you consider certain odd motivations, with an agenda completely different from the apparent one, everything in life can be explained. In any case, what is important is that there is an issue there, and I have raised it clearly, along with a number of other issues, as I said before, Akkuyu, etc., that must be discussed with Turkey at some point.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: We thank you very much. All the best.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you, too.
June 10, 2020