Y. PAPADAKOU: We have with us Mr. Evangelos Venizelos, the Deputy Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, President of Pasok. Good afternoon. We are happy to have you with us.
E. VENIZELOS: Good afternoon, Ms. Papadakou, and good afternoon to your listeners.
On the situation in Syria and Egypt
Y. PAPADAKOU: Do you see a last chance for peace, as I see in a headline from today’s ETHNOS?
E. VENIZELOS: What is needed is a definitive political solution in Syria. In Syria, a tragedy has been underway for about two and a half years now. There is a civil war; there is a conflicting situation. The two camps project a complex image; one doesn’t always know who one is dealing with and what each side is pursuing.
What is needed is for the Syrian citizen, the civilian population, to be protected, for calm and peace to be reestablished in a large and important country with 22 million residents, with huge, rich resources. A key country in the Middle East for security in the wider Eastern Mediterranean region.
So the goal is to achieve peace in the country and a political solution through the Geneva II process. Geneva I, as you know, was the previous process, with the two sides meeting without results. And this process has to move ahead so that there can be a plan for transition to a state of affairs that will meet with broad acceptance.
Y. PAPADAKOU: Mr. Minister, how do you see our country’s role? This is he concern, with thousands of refugees coming this way.
E. VENIZELOS: The refugees are, of course, a very major issue, and we have taken our measures from this perspective. Of course, Greece is not the number one country in terms of receiving refugees. The number one countries are neighbours with land borders with Syria. Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan have a much bigger problem. But we are naturally facing a problem via our maritime borders. And we are in consultation with the European Union and other countries in the European south, like Italy and Malta, for example, and Cyprus, which is much closer to the heart of the crisis.
The Ministries of Public Order and Shipping have made a great effort from this perspective.
Y. PAPADAKOU: And Mr. Varvitsiotis admitted that the problem exists.
E. VENIZELOS: And I had the opportunity to talk in depth to the competent Commissioner for humanitarian aid, who coordinates on these issues that are related to Syria. Now and, of course, consistently, we raise a problem that exists in the EU’s migration policy, which has to be comprehensive and just, because there is an element of unfairness to our country and to other countries that are the geographical gateways to the European Union and the Schengen area.
Y. PAPADAKOU: What is your political forecast? Do you think there is hope that a political solution will be found?
E. VENIZELOS: I think that the political pressure that has been exerted following the meeting of the G20 and the Informal Meeting of EU Foreign Ministers in Lithuania, at which Mr. Kerry participated in a 4-hour meeting on this issue, is very strong pressure. And I want to note the greater speed and flexibility with which the Russian side is now moving, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
Y. PAPADAKOU: Particularly from yesterday afternoon on.
E. VENIZELOS: Because there is a very serious problem of international legality and a very serious problem of the Security Council’s inability to fulfill its role. This is a lack of global law and order that must be confronted.
Y. PAPADAKOU: On the other hand, the opposition is making accusations, against you, personally, and the government in general, that you are facilitating the ‘hawks’.
E. VENIZELOS: The opposition, Syriza, asked a year ago, in an announcement, for the severing of all contact with the bloodstained Assad regime, and for the opposition to be supported with all force, politically and economically.
We are doing what we have to do to protect our national interests here, because interrelations are being shaped – interrelations that we cannot be absent from; in which perhaps we must not hold a lower position in relation to other countries – and that are very critical to our national interests.
Y. PAPADAKOU: If this intervention takes place – however long it lasts, they say it will be brief and surgical, but no one can control such a crisis.
E. VENIZELOS: We have no such information, Ms. Papadakou.
Y. PAPADAKOU: Hopefully it won’t take place.
E. VENIZELOS: What I can tell you is that what we have said – and, personally, what I have said throughout these days, as the representative of the Hellenic Republic, as Foreign Minister – is precisely, word for word, what was adopted by the 28 member states of the European Union in Lithuania and what Ms. Ashton summarized as the agreed position of the European Union.
Y. PAPADAKOU: Let’s move on and go to an issue that is to some extent related to what we are discussing: the defence industry.
E. VENIZELOS: Before we go on to the defence industry, let me say that, in parallel with the crisis in Syria, there was the crisis in Egypt. Egypt is a country that touches directly on Greece. Our interests are neighbouring interests. We have a problem with the maritime zones, we are two Eastern Mediterranean countries that neighbour one another. The promotion of Greek-Egyptian relations was very, very important during the crisis, to protect every kind of national interest that we have.
From the Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Monastery of Sinai to the traditional Greek communities of Egypt, and from the Greek enterprises that are very important there now – Greece is the fifth largest investor in Egypt – to the major issue of the delimitation of our maritime zones, the continental shelf and the EEZs in the Eastern Mediterranean. So the visit I paid to Egypt last Thursday is linked with the overall problem of the Middle East, the Eastern Mediterranean.
Y. PAPADAKOU: The exploitation of natural resources.
E. VENIZELOS: That, and not just that. Because there is a more overarching problem: on the one hand, energy resources, and on the other, security in the wider region. So we have to connect all of these in our analysis and bear in mind always that this happened a day before the meeting of EU Foreign Ministers in Lithuania and the meeting with Mr. Kerry in Vilnius.
Y. PAPADAKOU: What messages did you take away from that meeting?
E. VENIZELOS: The meeting in Egypt or the one in Vilnius?
Y. PAPADAKOU: The one in Vilnius, with Mr. Kerry, because it’s critical. You will also be making a visit to the U.S. Isn’t that right?
E. VENIZELOS: I will be going to the General Assembly, of which the last week in September is “Ministerial Week”, at which, in any case, all countries are represented at on the highest political level, and there are a lot of bilateral meetings.
Y. PAPADAKOU: Will Mr. Samaras be with you?
E. VENIZELOS: I will head the delegation to the General Assembly, and the Prime Minister will announce when he will be going after the General Assembly.
The issue with Mr. Kerry that you asked me about was very critical for all of us, because he briefed us on two major issues. One issue was the Middle East peace process: what exactly is happening in the dialogue between the Israelis and the Palestinians, what the prospects are, what the plan is. Because this interests us – the Middle East problem is the source of all the other problems, and we are also very interested because we have the Patriarchate there. The Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the pilgrimage sites.
And let me say something else. The peace plan also has a very major development dimension that the U.S. has drawn up, and this is a major opportunity for Greek enterprises in the region.
The second issue he briefed us on was, of course, Syria, on which Europe took a single stance that was announced by Mrs. Ashton and that we had expressed in any case.
Y. PAPADAKOU: It is also the Greek stance.
On the defence industry
Y. PAPADAKOU: Tell me about the defence industry. Your response to the troika is pending, according to reports, on Friday. Meanwhile, has the issue of dismissal without compensation been raised? Because Mr. Karvounis, who represents the Commission, has come out and said that no such issue has been raised by European Union officials.
E. VENIZELOS: The defence industry is, as you said, the defence industry. First of all, the Hellenic Vehicle Industry (ELVO), Hellenic Defence Systems (EAS) and the Hellenic Aerospace Industry (EAV) belong completely to the Greek state. There are legal problems, because many share capital increases are considered illegal state support, support by the state for a public sector company. This is a legal issue that can easily be resolved if we agree on the precisely defensive nature of these industries, which, as such, come under an exception that is provided for in community Law, in the primary Law of the European Union.
I also said this in my meeting with the Foreign Ministers, because one of the issues we discussed was the future of Common Security and Defence Policy. One of the pillars of CSDP is the European Defence Technological and Industrial Base. And my question was, “How is it possible for you to want to secure this base, and at the same time pressure us to close it for reasons that are primarily legal?”
Y. PAPADAKOU: So there is such an issue. You are telling me indirectly that such an issue was raised.
E. VENIZELOS: Certainly, the troika has raised the issue of the radical restructuring of EAS and ELVO.
Y. PAPADAKOU: And dismissals without compensation?
E. VENIZELOS: I’m not handling the issue. I don’t know precisely what is being negotiated.
Y. PAPADAKOU: Yes, but Ms. Gennimatas received that email.
E. VENIZELOS: There are no dismissals without compensation, but before we get to the issue of dismissals, with the exception of certain activities of a civilian, non-military nature, the bulk of the activities are military and must be military, because we are talking about armaments, heavy military vehicles and tanks.
These could well, if necessary, even become military units. But we must ensure the infrastructure. Because this is the hard core of our national sovereignty, it is linked to our assessments on issues of Security and Defence, and, as such, we will be the ones to decide these issues.
Y. PAPADAKOU: Are you looking at granting concessions to the private sector – even foreigners?
E. VENIZELOS: No. If there was an investor who was interested in both the civilian and military activities, we would discuss it, and we are always open to discussing it. But if there is no such prospect, of course, one has to draw a line between civilian activities and military activities, the latter being the most important.
Y. PAPADAKOU: I understand.
E. VENIZELOS: So this can be worked out legally in various ways, without there being a problem of illegal state support, in accordance with community Law. Because we often lose sight of the essence, and the EU and troika lose sight of the essence because they are looking at legal issues, which stem from, shall we say, a narrow, constricted interpretation of the treaties.
September 10, 2013