D. VERYKIOS: Good morning. And let's go straight to the talk of the day with a central figure -- a discussion that will be very interesting, with none other than the Minister of Foreign Affairs, our dear Nikos Kotzias.
S. LAMBROU: Good morning.
N. KOTZIAS: Good morning to both of you, and good morning to our listeners.
D. VERYKIOS: A first comment on everything we have experienced over the past 24 hours, with our eastern neighbours.
S. LAMBROU: And on the latest comments from the Turkish Prime Minister.
N. KOTZIAS: I think no one chooses their neighbours. What one chooses is the manner in which one deals with them and how one decides to behave. Our neighbours, as I have been pointing out for over a year and a half now, are very restless. Many aspects of their foreign policy didn't go as they would have liked, and they have intense domestic problems. We are taking care that they understand that good neighbourly relations are needed, based on international law and European law, and that they shouldn't externalise their domestic crisis.
D. VERYKIOS: They accuse us of provoking them. Are we provoking them, or are they provoking us?
N. KOTZIAS: I would say this: they need to accuse some of their neighbours, but this isn't the best conduct. They have internal needs, that is, to react in this manner.
D. VERYKIOS: In your opinion, what do Turkey and Greece have to do to de-escalate the tension in the Aegean?
S. LAMBROU: To bring the tensions down a notch.
N. KOTZIAS: First of all, the tension in the Aegean is not the highest we have ever had. We have to say something that I underscore, even if we aren't always pleased to hear it: the fact that we have not had heated incidents in the Aegean during the Erdogan era. We have had these daily, annoying and often dangerous incidents.
The second thing I underscore is the need for us to keep open all of the channels of communication, so that a heated incident isn't caused by an accident.
And the third is that we need to continue the multifaceted development of our relations and of our economic and political consultations. We aren't backing off at all in this area, despite everything that happened in our neighbouring country. We are continuing to take care to keep these channels open so that the tensions can be brought down as much as possible.
It is a way to handle our neighbour's restlessness. I think that our neighbour, too, needs to see -- and often does see -- that good neighbourly relations with Greece are the only ones it can have at this time. Because, as you know, until a few months ago they were rowing with the Russians, rowing with Syria, rowing with Iraq, while they don't have much in the way of relations with the Armenians. Consequently, they have to see that we are the best neighbours they can have.
D. VERYKIOS: Traditionally, the Foreign Ministry and its representative, its head, the Foreign Minister, reassured us and said that "the country needs to be supported diplomatically regarding the issues with our eastern neighbour."
N. KOTZIAS: Every Ministry has a means by which it acts. Our means is called "diplomacy and negotiation.": The country is in good shape when our means, diplomacy and negotiation, are the means through which relations with the neighbouring country are developed.
D. VERYKIOS: But do you believe that the other Ministry, the Ministry of Defence, has to prepare and build defences? Does the country need to build its defences when you hear from the Government Council on Foreign and Defence Affairs (KYSEA) about strengthening defence. The Ministry of Defence has to do its duty with the means at its disposal, and always in the hope that those means will not need to be used.
D. VERYKIOS: Are you pleased, do you sleep soundly, Mr. Minister, with the way the Greek side is handling these issues in Greek-Turkish relations?
N. KOTZIAS: I think we are very, very clear. We have made it known to all our allies and partners in NATO and the European Union, as well as to the members of the Security Council, that Turkey sometimes behaves with a restlessness that does not meet the needs of normal development of bilateral relations.
S. LAMBROU: Does this mean that you also fear a heated incident? Because we see the Turkish Minister of Defence ...
N. KOTZIAS: I don't go as far as a heated incident. I would say that, at this time, Turkey has placed the domestic coup at the centre of the world. As you know -- I want to underscore this again -- from the outset we condemned the coup in Turkey. In no way do we like seeing tanks and aircrafts bombing Parliament, regardless of any weakness and side effects the functioning of this institution might have in Turkey.
D. VERYKIOS: Then why didn't we hand over "the 8"?
N. KOTZIAS: What I always stress is that we want to see the combating of any kind of military coup from the perspective of the defence of democracy and democratic rules, from the perspective of the strengthening of democratic institutions. This is our general view on coups globally.
D. VERYKIOS: And how do you respond to your colleague?
N. KOTZIAS: Fortunately, we have a clear separation of powers in this country. What I always answer is that democracy functions as foreseen by Montesquieu and Tocqueville, with the separation of powers. We need to ensure that this separation of powers is respected, not just in Greece -- where it is respected -- but also in every other country.
D. VERYKIOS: What did you think of Merkel's visit to Ankara yesterday and her meeting with Erdogan?
N. KOTZIAS: I think it is good for all European leaders to maintain open channels of communication with Turkey, to talk to Turkey about all of the problems or the possible solutions that we have before us, but without backing down -- and I don't think this happened -- from the principles of European rule of law.
S. LAMBROU: What's happening on the Cyprus issue?
N. KOTZIAS: The Cyprus problem is a very difficult issue. Some people told me that it should have been resolved by 19 January. That is, some people thought that the last day of the previous U.S. administration is also the last day of the existence of Cyprus. Naturally it wasn't. Some people elevated their personal careers to the main criterion for the resolution of the Cyprus issue.
We are clear on the Cyprus issue: when we talk about a solution, we also have to say what the problem is. Without defining the problem, you can't find a solution. I don't know any mathematician who doesn't write at the bottom of the page the function he has to solve to get a solution, saying "this is some abstract and non-existent function."
The Cyprus problem has two aspects. The one aspect is the relations between the two Communities, the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots. Let me also remind you here of the three religious groups, which we very systematically back as much as we can in the international environment: I am refereing to the Latins, the Armenians and the Maronites. But the Cyprus problem is mainly an issue -- and this is its core -- of the occupation of Cyprus by Turkish forces.
If we agree that, when we say 'the Cyprus problem', we mean the occupation, then the answer and the solution to the Cyprus problem, this difficult equation, cannot but include the elimination of the system of the Treaty of Guarantees. The right, that is, according to Turkey -- illegally of course, but this is Turkey's opinion -- to intervene on the island. Moreover, you cannot but include the removal of all of these occupation forces, which today are estimated at a little under 34,000.
Consequently, anyone who doesn't agree with the definition of the Cyprus problem in this way has to tell us what, in their opinion, the definition is. How many vetoes the Turkish Cypriots will have? This is one side and aspect of the Cyprus issue, but it is not its core.
S. LAMBROU: Following the developments we had with "the 8", do you think Erdogan will raise other issues? Will he throw up other impediments in the Cyprus issue?
N. KOTZIAS: Turkey has raised two issues on the Cyprus problem, becoming ever more "sincere". The one is that it is pursuing the continued presence of a portion of the Turkish army on the island. Initially it said this was only to protect the Turkish Cypriots, but of late, with greater sincerity, it is talking about reasons of geostrategic aspirations. The second, which we have been hearing for two months now, is that, in the context of the Cyprus issue, they want to ensure the interests of Turkish citizens: how they will travel back and forth and move as European citizens in Cyprus.
Thus, the Turks define the Cyprus problem as satisfaction of their own geostrategic aspirations. I have responded many, many times that all sides must make compromises on the Cyprus issue, so that Cyprus can take the course of a sovereign and independent -- truly independent and sovereign -- state. But in no case are we in the negotiations to resolve Turkey's geostrategic issues. These are Turkey's issues and they don't concern us in the context of the Cyprus issue. They concern us in the context of inter-state relations.
D. VERYKIOS: Does Nikos Kotzias have a clear conscience regarding what he has done to date, particularly behind the scenes in the Cyprus negotiations.
N. KOTZIAS: Yes. Not only is my conscience clear, but my conscience is the only one that feels good right now.
D. VERYKIOS: Why? Can you tell us?
N. KOTZIAS: Because I think that, for the first time, we changed the agenda of the Cyprus negotiations. As you know, in 2002-2004 the Greek state believed -- particularly with regard to the Annan plan -- that it couldn't substantially raise the issue of guarantees and Turkey's "rights" of intervention.
The same thing happened -- despite not coming to the surface very much -- in the negotiations that took place from 2008 to 2009-2010. Today, the agenda has changed for the first time, and it will stay this way. That is, we put the core of the Cyprus issue back on the table.
Second, this is the first time we have been so well prepared when going to negotiations. We have studied the international experience of all the cases of conflicts, the cases that bear similarity to the Cyprus issue or to aspects of the Cyprus issue: from East Timor to the negotiations for peace in Colombia; from how open-ended negotiations were carried out with Iran -- that is, if the negotiations stalled at some point, that didn't mean their collapse. We even studied the nature of the international treaties on the withdrawal of third-country forces. As I have already said, the best case is probable the agreement on the temporary stationing of Soviet forces in the process of their withdrawal from German territory.
Third, in the negotiations -- I will put this very colloquially -- we are not "chickens". We know that we are defending the goods of Law, human rights and state rights, and we are moving ahead with this without backing down. We are not dogmatic in our stances. We have the necessary flexibility for good compromises to be made, but we will not back down for bad and shoddy compromises to be made.
All of these are positive elements. And I should also tell you that Britain has made a major shift in the field of the negotiations. It has gone from a traditionally pro-Turkish stance to realising and now telling the Turks that they cannot maintain the guarantor and intervention rights. This is a very, very big result.
We have changed the agenda and we have strengthened our alliances. There is not a single EU member state that does not see how astute our stance is: that a member state of the European Union cannot be under occupation or be in a position where a third country has a right to intervene in it. We have shown on the international political stage that such a state of affairs would lead to other states demanding rights of intervention in smaller states where there is a population that shares their culture or speaks their language.
D. VERYKIOS: Are those who have been critical of Nikos Kotzias from time to time, regarding how you negotiate, the same people who wanted him to be a chicken?
N. KOTZIAS: I think they are the people who had got used to our being "chickens" and are annoyed when we aren't. We are a state with a foreign policy that is governed by an extremely scientific approach, dignity, persistence and patience -- and, I would say, to a degree, by insight. They had got used to Greece's accepting, by definition, the Turkish side's intervening in Cyprus whenever it wanted, also believing that rights of intervention in Cyprus were the solution. I don't get it! How is the Turks' right to intervene in the domestic affairs of Cyprus -- or to occupy part of Cyprus whenever they want -- a solution to the Cyprus issue?
I would say that there are some people who have a supposedly internationalist stance. That is, fundamentally they like patriotism, but what always impresses me is that -- while they raise the anti-nationalist flag to back the positions of third countries -- hiding behind this is essentially support for Turkey's nationalist goals.
Because what else is it but Turkish nationalism to want Turkey to have the right to intervene in a third state? And what else is it besides patriotism and internationalism to demand the implementation of international law?
D. VERYKIOS: Right.
N. KOTZIAS: And third -- I have to say this -- some of these people are caught up in international circles. I remind you that, in the discussion following the Annan plan, in 2004, it was shown that some of those who attacked me were funded by circles. I'm not insinuating anything.
D. VERYKIOS: NGOs?
N. KOTZIAS: You are an exceptional journalist. You can look into it.
I want to say one last thing. There are also people who criticize me from the perspective of their own composed thinking. Not from a bad standpoint. They are well intentioned and their criticism is always welcome. But I believe that the criticism of these people is incorrect.
Regarding the former -- those who do it out of expediency or to serve third parties -- the only thing I have to say is that they distort the facts. They take as reality any lie published by Turkey and, from there, in the international press. It is senseless for them to judge me based on these accusations.
And I'll give you a very simple example. We were invited to Geneva as the Foreign Ministry, to negotiate on Thursday and Friday, 12 and 13 January. I have the relevant documents -- and in fact I saw that your excellent colleague in the U.S., Mihail Ignatiou, made them public -- that show we were invited for two days.
We went there, they gave us the agenda, which said talks on a political level would take place on Thursday and Friday, and the UN Secretary-General opened the session saying that "the talks would take place Thursday and Friday on a political level." Suddenly Mr. Eide -- whom I will be seeing this afternoon -- said, on Thursday evening: "We will set up technical groups tomorrow." I answered him: "Why set up technical groups if we, the ministers, have the opportunity and the duty to continue our discussion?" And my colleague Cavusoglu got up and said: "I don't have time. I have other, more important things to do. I've made plane reservations and I have to leave early in the morning." So he left early in the morning, while we stayed to continue to explore the potential for a solution in Geneva, and, in fact, he stated in Ankara: "Kotzias said that he can't stay at the negotiations."
That's absurd. I was in Geneva when he said that, and he was in Ankara. So, some people in Cyprus and in Greece took this argument and, together with a Brussels newspaper with wide circulation, claimed that we did not stay at the negotiations.
S. LAMBROU: Mr. Minister, we would like one more comment, on Trump. And, additionally, are we perhaps afraid that the Turks will threaten us substantially via the refugee issue?
N. KOTZIAS: Trump is a new phenomenon in America. He formed a new alliance that proved to be a majority in 48 of the country's 50 states. The difference of 3 million he had with Mrs. Clinton was 6 million in two states, in New York and California. So in the other states he won the majority.
So he organized -- against the Democrats who had for many years the majority of African Americans, Hispanic voters and others -- the white working class majority. People who are unemployed or underemployed or work for very low wages were added to the middle classes. This new alliance expresses a repulsion to globalization, because its members feel defeated by it and, to a degree, fuels protectionism.
Instead of screaming about Trump from morning to night, the Europeans -- and I have told them this a thousand times -- would do well to correctly study the phenomenon and find a way to explain precisely what the European Union wants today and what its relationship with the U.S. should be.
I note that, for Greek foreign policy, the clash between the European Union and the U.S. is of no use. Because all of the major European powers, which are mid-level powers globally, work things out with the U.S. a few weeks or months after they clash, and we are left on the sidelines.
That's why I've told them that I will not follow such a confrontational tactic, based on "we don't accept the results of the elections," which, however, as they themselves know, are democratic results.
D. VERYKIOS: At any rate, you've found a modus vivendi with the Trump system.
N. KOTZIAS: No. We are in an open discussion. I also want to tell you -- because lately there has been a lot of noise about the refugee issue -- that we really must defend the human rights of all of these millions of people.
As Greeks, we have the right to talk about this, but the Europeans who closed the western Balkan route do not have that right.
S. LAMBROU: Right.
D. VERYKIOS: Thank you. A torrent of information once again. Thank you.
N. KOTZIAS: Have a good day.
February 3, 2017