JOURNALIST: Today we have with us the Foreign Minister, who does interviews only rarely.
N. KOTZIAS: Good day, and I thank you for the invitation.
JOURNALIST: This is your first or second TV interview, if I’m not mistaken.
N. KOTZIAS: It’s the second, and the first since I became a minister again, following the September elections.
JOURNALIST: The first was with Sofia Papaioannou. Let’s start the conversation from the international headlines. We see that the international press is focused on the Paris climate agreement, which is considered very important for the continued life of the planet – and our lives on the planet.
N. KOTZIAS: This is a good agreement. First of all, 196 countries signed, and I hope that 2/3 of them will ratify it soon, so that it can enter into force. I also hope President Obama can get it through Congress in the U.S., because, as you know, Clinton was unable to get the previous agreement through. You should also know that they have decided to give $100 billion a year to developing countries so that they can protect their environments, but there is still a discussion over which countries are developing countries. Based on the decisions at the beginning of the 1990s, this category included South Korea, Singapore, the People’s Republic of China. Now, at least South Korea and Singapore are considered wealthy countries, while it is under discussion whether China is still a developing or a powerful country.
JOURNALIST: The People’s Republic of China is now plagued by smog on a daily basis.
N. KOTZIAS: As I observed the last time I went, China has a contradiction. On the one hand it has cities, like Beijing, with a major smog problem, and on the other hand it is creating new cities that are green cities. It is my impression that the same thing will happen in China that happened in Germany, with the Green movement. The German movement was born, it fought for the agenda, for the environment that we are discussing today, and Germany adapted its technology and is the global leader in matters of environmental protection. I have the impression that the same thing will happen in China.
JOURNALIST: We don’t usually discuss these global issues in Greece, but you saw today how important it is. All of the newspapers in the world have the environment as their top story: the Paris agreement on the environment.
N. KOTZIAS: I would say that global problems and foreign policy are becoming more and more important in the domestic lives of states.
JOURNALIST: I want to ask you about this major problem that we are facing and that you are handling as well, given that you are constantly participating in meetings. I am referring to the refugee issue. People are very concerned, and they believe that 2016 will be a difficult year for the islands and our tourism. A fall in reservations has already been observed.
N. KOTZIAS: I saw that in 2015 we reached 26 million in the end; that is, 4 million more tourists, with a €2.5 billion increase in revenues. I think we have to look at the problem more on the islands refugees travel to from the Turkish coast, and there needs to be a special campaign. I think that the competent Minister, Elena Kountoura, is taking measures in this direction.
JOURNALIST: What do we have to say to the residents of the islands? Will these caravans be arriving constantly?
N. KOTZIAS: First of all, I think our country, like other countries, as well, is paying for the decisions of third parties. We didn’t want a war in Syria or Iraq, and nor did we want to intervene. We may have had our views on the governments, but, unfortunately, there were those who decided to go to war, while others are paying for this, and we are trying to explain this to our partners. The second thing is that an understanding has to be reached with Turkey. As you saw in Valetta and in the meetings we had in Istanbul and Ankara, we agreed with the Turkish leadership on a number of measures, and in fact I will reveal to you that recently, last Friday, we had a meeting of technical teams in Istanbul, and they are trying to manage the issue. Of course …
JOURNALIST: On Friday, in Parliament, the Prime Minister said that there was an agreement between the EU and Turkey, but that he fears that it will remain on paper. And he said he hopes he is proved wrong. So far, nothing has happened.
N. KOTZIAS: As I said, we know, first of all, that the Europeans aren’t implementing they decisions they are making regarding the refugee issue. I remind you that with the relocation of the refugees, Luxembourg was to have taken 150,000, and they have taken 30 persons, and Italy was to have taken 100,000 but has taken 176. The U.S. said it would take 100,000 people but has reduced that to 10,000. The second thing is that there isn’t economic support. I estimate our expenditures at 1.8 to 2 billion euros – direct or indirect expenditures – as Greece, throughout this year. That’s my calculation. I can’t say this is precise data, but the transports, accommodation, clothing, food …
JOURNALIST: Is that our money? Or have we got it from somewhere?
N. KOTZIAS: Now we have agreed to get €450 million in the coming months …
JOURNALIST: Do you imagine now that Turkey, from the negotiations with Erdogan …
N. KOTZIAS: Turkey will supposedly get €3 billion. We have to look at this, but beyond our European partners – who aren’t implementing the decisions and are yelling at Greece – I must say that we really have a lack of certain …
JOURNALIST: That it will leave the Schengen …
N. KOTZIAS: … Because we didn’t have a mechanism, no one had foreseen such a thing: 1,000,000 people passing through the country. The second issue is the Turks. The Turks are bargaining in the eastern style, which the Europeans don’t understand well. We want to have friendly relations, but in my opinion the simplest thing should happen: the refugee flows should be stopped at the Turkish border itself. Let me tell you something. Yesterday morning I saw that we have a special problem with the “quality” of economic migrants coming from Morocco – there are a lot of criminal elements. As you know, these migrants fly from Algiers and Morocco to Istanbul for only €50, and from there they go to the coast and pass into Greece. They should be stopped at the Istanbul airport.
JOURNALIST: Why couldn’t we agree, as the agreement was made with Turkey, for Frontex to check the influx of refugees at the Turkish border and not later, on the European maritime border, our border?
N. KOTZIAS: I agree with you completely, but Frontex …
JOURNALIST: Why didn’t we try to get that passed?
N. KOTZIAS: We did try. We also said that the hotspots should be in Turkey itself, and that is under negotiation. Turkey is also negotiating for creating a no-fly zone and military operations in Syria itself. So the whole situation is under negotiation …
JOURNALIST: Inside Syria?
N. KOTZIAS: Yes, because I remind you that Turkey won Alexandretta from Syria through similar moves in the 1930s.
JOURNALIST: Now that we’ve said that, is Frontex coming to seal the Greek-FYROM border? Because there is a fear that they will remain with us, on the Greek-FYROM border.
N. KOTZIAS: Germany has decided that those who don’t come from three specific states (Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan) shouldn’t come for political asylum, because they are not refugees, but economic migrants. So, our assessment is that their numbers will probably fall if they know that they can’t move to the north. Frontex has a legal issue that we have raised with the Commission, which responds that it probably can, that its charter provides for its blocking entry into a country, not exiting from a country.
JOURNALIST: Did you have a say in delaying the request for Frontex? We will ask you about the interview the head of Frontex has in today’s “Kathimerini”, which says that Frontex was ready in October, but Greece delayed.
N. KOTZIAS: Yes, but let me say that Frontex, rather than working all day, closed at 2 in the afternoon and didn’t work on weekends. We asked for the Frontex presence, and in much larger numbers than they gave us, and they didn’t manage to get those numbers. We have asked for 780 for the islands, and they have given us around 434 or 432 right now.
JOURNALIST: We’re talking about the situation on the border with FYROM.
N. KOTZIAS: That is a second issue. What is certain is that the Frontex force on the islands is half of what we asked for, and that the situation would be different if we had been given those personnel. What’s more, they worked specific shifts, which stopped after the interventions we made. The refugees don’t say, “It’s 2 o’clock, I won’t cross over.”
JOURNALIST: Like our personnel work, that is?
N. KOTZIAS: Ours are working themselves to exhaustion. We have wonderful people working for the coastguard, and I want to underscore …
JOURNALIST: And can you tell us about the meeting reported in “Real News”. In the second half of January – Tsipras-Merkel-Erdogan, on Chios.
N. KOTZIAS: There are three countries with a major interest in the refugee issue. One is Turkey, which has the largest number of refugees, and from which the refugees travel on to Europe. The second is Greece, with its geographical position and its many islands. And the third is Germany, where 75% of the refugees have ended up. We have said we will take an initiative – an initiative of the Prime Minister – which we are supporting in practical terms at the Foreign Ministry. We will convene on Chios a meeting between Merkel, Erdogan and us. And in fact we are planning afterwards to pass over to Izmir, so that we can see both sides. But the invitation will be ours, to our island.
JOURNALIST: Has it been accepted?
N. KOTZIAS: A date hasn’t been set, but in principle, in the discussion, yes.
JOURNALIST: So this trilateral meeting will take place in January?
N. KOTZIAS: It might be in early February. I think that what we did with Turkey, and which many did not understand, is that we want to talk directly with this country, and not with through third parties, because any third party that mediates looks out for its own interests first.
JOURNALIST: As we’re talking about Turkey, has the story with the joint patrols finished? Because it’s being said that there are those trying to get it in through the back door.
N. KOTZIAS: The story with the joint patrols, as concerns the European Councils, the Summit Meetings, in which the Prime Minister participates, had ended – and even Ms. Merkel has been kind enough to state that, following the explanations given by the Prime Minister, she has understood the issue. But certain parties in the Commission, who are drawing up new planning for the new Coastguard, have it in their minds that this new Coastguard can carry out joint patrols. This will not pass. In fact, this will be a negotiation that will last – regarding the document being drawn up by the Commission, on the new Coastguard – from ten months to two years.
JOURNALIST: So this is a red line for us.
N. KOTZIAS: Of course. We are in favor of cooperation, we promote cooperation, but coordination is out of the question, because we have all of these well-known problems. And I think what I said to you before is important: We have to talk directly with Turkey, and not through third parties, because the third parties look out for their own interests, not ours.
JOURNALIST: But such an issue will not be on the table with Merkel and Erdogan?
N. KOTZIAS: There is no way at the Council. The Commission wants it, but it won’t get it through.
JOURNALIST: Now that we’ve talked about the refugee issue, Mr. Minister, I want to ask you how the government is going.
N. KOTZIAS: I think it can do better, but it is doing better that the previous governments. It has the potential, gathering experience, on the one hand, and , on the other, because Alexis Tsipras is what I call, in English, an “adaptive system” – that is, a system that learns, assimilates and implements. I think it will be better with each passing day.
JOURNALIST: Let me ask you something, since we’re onto politics. You were a close friend of George Papandreou in previous years.
N. KOTZIAS: George Papandreou found me as an expert counsellor and I finished my term under New Democracy, as an ambassador at the Foreign Ministry, and I was, as a ministry employee, a good associate of his.
JOURNALIST: With the change in policy that took place after September – that is, with the understanding that a third memorandum is necessary, the country’s
European course is necessary – do you believe that, in hindsight, George Papandreou’s decision in 2010 is vindicated?
N. KOTZIAS: No. I believe the same thing I believed then: that if the 2010 agreement didn’t exist, we wouldn’t have the current problems. We have committed on many issues.
JOURNALIST: So the source of the evil was the first memorandum. You still believe that?
N. KOTZIAS: I believe that the Hellenic Parliament should have carried out a haircut on the loans and then looked at the measures. Any first-year student of international economy learns this. The opposite happened here. The measures were taken and the haircut happened much later.
JOURNALIST: Can we go back to how this government is doing. Are you, too, concerned that the government is facing problems with leaks on the social security or agriculture issues?
N. KOTZIAS: I don’t think so. I have no such indication, personally. What I believe is that there will be protests – and I believe such movements are good, because I am one of those people who is more worried when society is mute that when society expresses itself in various ways.
JOURNALIST: Yes, but if there are protests, on the Thessaly plain, for example, or in northern Greece, won’t this influence the local MPs so that they think about not voting the measures through?
N. KOTZIAS: No, I don’t think so, because everyone knows that many aspects of this agreement are by necessity, not by choice.
JOURNALIST: They are by necessity, not by choice, but pensions will be cut, tax on farmers will be tripled.
N. KOTZIAS: The smallest pensions won’t be cut, and regarding the farmers there is the thinking that certain categories of agricultural income should be taxed.
JOURNALIST: What do you mean by, “there is the thinking”?
N. KOTZIAS: I mean that there are many wealthy farmers who don’t pay tax.
JOURNALIST: So this is by choice?
N. KOTZIAS: I’m saying what I think is right.
JOURNALIST: I want to say that the government is opening such an issue by choice.
N. KOTZIAS: By necessity, because taxation of farmers was part of a general wording in the summer agreement.
JOURNALIST: So why is there this speculation that the prime minister is “massaging” his MPs, he calls them to his office, he isn’t bringing the social security issue before Parliament in December …
N. KOTZIAS: Isn’t it normal for the prime minister to meet and talk with his MPs? That is, doesn’t a prime minister talk to his MPs?
JOURNALIST: Alright, you’re experienced. This is what ministers do when they are afraid there are leaks.
N. KOTZIAS: No, Alexis Tsipras is different. That is, when I go and meet him two times a day, because we are close, I think it is a very good and correct way of operating. And in fact, because, as you know, I am not “Syriza,” I always wonder at the many hours it takes to carry out internal procedures. For example, over the weekend they had their Central Committee. That’s not a ‘massage’.
JOURNALIST: You aren’t integrated into the party. You don’t espouse Syriza’s policy?
N. KOTZIAS: I espouse the government’s policy. As you know, I belong to a small political movement, like Nikos Toskas, which is called PRATTO, and we put stronger emphasis on the characteristics of democratic patriotism.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Tsipras hasn’t persuaded you to join Syriza? You remain part of this small movement?
N. KOTZIAS: Mr. Tsipras has convinced my very, very well of the fact that he is an extremely good prime minister and of how useful it is that I am participating in this government. No, we don’t talk about parties. We maintain an independence. I have a different history from Syriza’s today, and I haven’t joined parties since 1989.
JOURNALIST: Now that we’re on the subject, do you – as you have a different way of thinking – do you believe that, apart from ANEL, if any other party came, if the governing majority were expanded, would it be better? Is there that potential?
N. KOTZIAS: If there is some political force that wants to support the Greek people and the policy of the current government, that is welcome. Whether there is a party that wants to alter our policy to the benefit of third parties, I don’t know. Because the debate taking place concerns mostly a change in political direction.
JOURNALIST: Doesn’t the ‘by necessity’ enter into this debate?
N. KOTZIAS: I don’t think so. The government has a majority with which is governs.
JOURNALIST: Why do I say this? Because a conversation has been started – you will allow me, from the information we have – by the main political force, which is Syriza. And as it sees the difficulties in the legislation, it is calling on the opposition for consensus.
N. KOTZIAS: First of all, it is calling them to a dialogue. That’s important. Because all dialogue is gone, and it is seen as sly and aimed at a cooperation government. I think that the political culture of dialogue is missing from the country. And it is a part of democracy. And I am always in favor of that.
JOURNALIST: What political force might join Syriza to implement this policy, the ‘by necessity’ policy?
N. KOTZIAS: I think that the forces that make up the government today have provided a stable government, stable work. And that any force that thinks it’s worth the trouble …
JOURNALIST: You say that the dialogue on consensus is necessary. As you aren’t a member of Syriza, don’t you see Syriza as having a share of the blame, as the opposition, for not cultivating this culture of dialogue and discussion?
N. KOTZIAS: I don’t think it’s Syria’s fault. I think that Greek society has matured with a different culture, and I would say that all of the political forces are responsible – maybe me too, as well as you journalists – for the fact that something is considered a betrayal or suspicious for some other plan. I am a fan of dialogue. At the ministry itself, I hear a great deal. I have my views, I listen, I amend them, I adapt them, and I try to persuade. I don’t like policy without dialogue.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Minister, you know that in the previous year, on the course to power, the other parties were German collaborators. This isn’t easily forgotten.
N. KOTZIAS: I have never called anyone a German collaborator, but I have said that Greece was and is a debt colony. That there is outside control, which is combined with the way the EU is developing – I have said it has certain characteristics of an empire. This is a scientific term.
JOURNALIST: The allegations against the opposition parties, when they were in the government, aren’t easily forgotten.
N. KOTZIAS: But there are politicians, let’s put it as politely as I can, who in their minds prioritize as a criterion what is said by every foreign power, rather than the needs of the country. Even now. We always talk about Greeks, not Germans. It’s a matter of the criterion on which politics is practiced. This is very important as far as I’m concerned. Everyone feels this land’s pain in their own way, more or less differently. I also imagine that everyone stays up late and that they can’t sleep and they don’t have time – some do have time – to look at anything beyond the solution to these problems, either as a governing party or the opposition. But the criteria one has for solving the country’s problems are very important. I believe that our criteria are closer to this democratic patriotism, as I call it. Others believe that what foreigners say is an important criterion. When they repeat the arguments of these foreigners, I don’t say that someone is a traitor or has sold out. I say that the criterion he has incorporated into himself is more his concern regarding the foreigners, rather that his concern for his country.
JOURNALIST: You will admit that if there was another government, another party, not Syriza, and it made this agreement with the foreign funds for the business loans, there would be a bigger problem.
N. KOTZIAS: I think that if there were another party, it wouldn’t have carried out these negotiations that Alexis Tsipras carried out, personally, with such patience, and the results of the negotiations would be different. The tolerance people are showing for the government is linked to the fact that they believe we are fighting as hard as we can to get as far as we can.
JOURNALIST: The tolerance of society or of the Europeans?
N. KOTZIAS: Of society. As for the Europeans, we know that there are often those among them who want another government, but others are realists and pragmatists and understand that there isn’t another majority in the country.
JOURNALIST: I want to ask you, I read in today’s “Vima”, the president of the ESM, Mr. Regling, says there is convergence with the IMF on the regulation of the Greek debt.
N. KOTZIAS: He just isn’t telling us what that convergence is.
JOURNALIST: The convergence agreement is conditional on the IMF’s being active in the agreement.
N. KOTZIAS: The IMF, in order to be part of the agreement, wants it to be agreed that there be a substantial haircut on the debt. The problem with the negotiations we had in 2015 is that the IMF had a good view on the debt and bad views on the so-called measures, while the Europeans had milder views on the measures, but didn’t want there to be a haircut on the debt. The difficult moment in the negotiations was when they converged on the negative aspects: no to a haircut on the debt and yes to a lot of measures.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Minister, is there progress towards a haircut on the debt? Because that’s the goal.
N. KOTZIAS: It’s on the table.
JOURNALIST: So we will have positive messages on the debt in 2016?
N. KOTZIAS: That is what we are pursuing and that is what we’re working for.
JOURNALIST: Can’t you tell us anything more?
N. KOTZIAS: I think there are ministers more competent on this issue than I.
JOURNALIST: Do you regret the statement you made regarding jihadists?
N. KOTZIAS: Not at all. Those who distorted it should have the regrets. I came out of the NATO Ministerial on Syria and a German station asked me what would happen if Greece were ousted from the EU and how many problems we have. I said that if Greece, too, were destabilized – you know that I have the figure that has been accepted globally now, the triangle of instability, Ukraine-Libya-Syria – then the result will be that we will have an awesome wave of migrants, and within this awesome wave of migrants we might also see people who will be out of control. This was distorted and used by politicians in the Hellenic Parliament recently. The essence is this: When, in February 2015, I first raised as a central issue the matter of terrorism and the problem of the destabilization of Syria that would bring migration influxes, many thought I wanted to divert attention from the Ukraine crisis and that I did it out of pro-Russian sentiment, out of anti-Europeanism, etc. I think we just had a very good presentiment, because we sensed, from a closer distance, what was happening in the Middle East, that the problem was coming. I say the same thing today.
There are those in Europe who have a lot of contacts with the Muslim Brotherhood in North Africa. I have made many demarches and sent multiple letters, and I have said that the military regime in Egypt may not be well liked, but we have to consider what might happen if Egypt is destabilized, with a population of 96 or 97 million, of which 65 million are under 27 years of age, without work or prospects, and with Sudan to the south, with its recent civil war and 45 million inhabitants, and with the failed state of Somalia, with another 20 million. That is, we are talking about 160 to 170 million people. What I told them about Syria in February holds true today for Egypt. They need to stop playing destabilizing games in the region. Because what the region most needs is security and stability.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Minister, I hope you enjoyed this interview. We made some news. We will decode it now. Thank you very much, and please come more often.
N. KOTZIAS: It is true that I am a little on the other extreme, I am very focused on work and don’t give many interviews. Sometimes there is good news. Greece was elected to the executive board of UNESCO, with highest number of votes in the world. We were also elected at the IOM. We had a judge elected for the first time, Mr. Raikos, to the UN Appeals Tribunal. We also passed, for the first time, a resolution at the UN that protects our archaeological heritage. There are good pieces of news, and it may be my fault that they aren’t heard enough.
December 14, 2015