JOURNALIST: We have Minister of Foreign Affairs Nikos Dendias with us. Good morning, Minister.
MINISTER: Good morning to you and your viewers.
JOURNALIST: Let’s start with the latest, because we saw Ankara back down yesterday.
MINISTER: I would say it saw reason, nothing more than that.
JOURNALIST: In a sense. I don’t know if it saw reason, because Erdogan didn’t come out and say, “yes, you’re right, we should sit down and talk in general and I won’t send out the Oruc Reis.” He says, “I have a deadline of one month for us to discuss things.”
MINISTER: Let’s be absolutely clear on this. Our country doesn’t talk when it’s being threatened or given deadlines. These are matters of International Law and the Law of the Sea. I don’t think anyone can set deadlines on this. Beyond that, President Erdogan can say what he thinks.
JOURNALIST: How will this dialogue take place? In what form?
MINISTER: Excuse me. I want to be clear. There is still no such agreement or understanding with the Turkish side. This is something that the Greek side has always pursued, regardless of the government in power, and Prime Minister Mitsotakis has said this repeatedly. But at this time there is no agreement on a process for initiating a dialogue. It’s under discussion. That’s all.
JOURNALIST: In the discussions, let me give you an example, does the German initiative look like it will move ahead following the position taken by Erdogan? Are you expecting a phone call? Has a meeting been arranged?
MINISTER: There is no point in my troubling you or your viewers with details. I’m just telling you what there is so far.
JOURNALIST: Let’s put it another way. Are the conversion of Hagia Sophia into a mosque and the signing of the Turkey-Libya memorandum obstacles to launching an official dialogue?
MINISTER: The Hagia Sophia situation is extremely sad, extremely unpleasant, but it isn’t a Greek-Turkish dispute. The Greek side has taken a very clear stance in all the international fora, and it will do everything it can to protect the monument of Hagia Sophia.
Hagia Sophia belongs to the global community. It is a world heritage monument, a monument that could symbolize the unity of all monotheistic religions. In contrast, I think Turkey's current effort to convert it into a mosque can only damage Turkey’s international image.
Now, regarding the Turkey-Libya agreement, for the Greek side and, I think, for the international community – everyone has taken a stance – it is completely null and void. The idea that you can share out maritime zones while ignoring the 4th largest island in the Mediterranean – and many other islands, but I’m using the example of Crete because this is so comical when you look at a map – is a Turkish position that does not stand up to criticism.
So, of course, we don’t ...
We have completely refused to accept this. Beyond that, I repeat that we consider the memorandum null and void.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Dendias, obviously, when a dialogue begins, a discussion, an effort to improve the climate, an open channel of communication – however we want to put it – we have to trust the other side. Does Athens trust Erdogan? Given that he has recently adopted a stance that is not very ...
MINISTER: I’ll be frank. Everyone is judged by his conduct, and I must say that Turkey’s conduct consisted of violations – conduct that did not respect International Law and the Law of the Sea. This is the reality of the situation so far, and this conduct is continuing in part – for example, the issues concerning the Cypriot exclusive zone.
Beyond that, Greece is always open to dialogue, and we have always said this, regardless of the government in office at a given time. But I want to be clear on this: Greece will not enter into a dialogue on just any issue. What are Greece and Turkey’s disputes? The dispute is very specific: the continental shelf and the maritime zones over it. Greece has said it is very willing to discuss this dispute, and I reiterate that the government of Prime Minister Mitsotakis and all past Greek governments have said that, if we don't reach an agreement with the other side, we can enter into an agreement and submit the case to The Hague to resolve our differences.
But we will not enter into a dialogue on just any issue.
JOURNALIST: Now, I assume Erdogan has been handling the issues in this way recently because Athens has, in short order, concluded an agreement with Italy and is in talks with Egypt. How are we doing with Egypt?
MINISTER: These are difficult negotiations. I won’t hide the fact that these negotiations have been going on for about 20 years, and we haven’t reached an agreement. So, these obviously aren't easy negotiations. But there has been progress, and I hope we’ll be able to get a result. But I think it’s still too early to say.
JOURNALIST: Could the agreement with Egypt proceed in stages, as we’ve heard – in other words, leaving Kastelorizo out at this stage?
MINISTER: The agreement with Egypt could have stages, and the first stage could be a partial delimitation of a section of the maritime zones that we are dividing with Egypt. That could be an option. In fact, it could be an option that is in the interest of both the Greek and the Egyptian sides.
JOURNALIST: Right. We’ve seen the escalation on the part of Ankara recently. We’ve seen the situation in Evros, the refugee issue, and the tension that was created ...
MINISTER: You’re talking about February and March.
JOURNALIST: Do you think this front is closed, or could we see similar incidents again in the coming time.
MINISTER: I honestly can’t predict. If you had asked my whether the unbelievable things that happened in Evros in February and March were going to happen, could I have predicted it? This conduct is in complete violation of international legality.
The exploitation of the migration issue, the exploitation of human pain, the exploitation of human needs is inconceivable to Europe, Greece and the other European countries.
I think the fact that Turkey attempted to use the migration issue to exert pressure on Greece and to exert pressure on the European Union characterised Turkey in a specific way, and Greece acted in Evros and the Aegean with the unanimous support of all its partners. This is worth pointing out.
Turkey found itself facing all of the countries of the European Union, who took an unprecedented stance against what Turkey was doing.
JOURNALIST: As you have launched an effort to internationalise the second phase of Turkey’s provocations – I mean the recent ones in the Mediterranean – and you and the Prime Minister have undertaken to inform the partners; you discussed it with your colleagues. What is the climate like? Because we’re expecting something a little more tangible. In other words, we would like to see the sanctions against Turkey be put on the table at some point if Erdogan continues in this way.
MINISTER: First of all, I’m not the one who should be talking about this, but it’s worth saying. Cyprus has already secured a decision on sanctions against Turkey – sanctions on persons.
The Greek side had another approach. We asked the Council – and the Council agreed – to give a mandate to the High Representative, Mr. Borrell, to prepare a list of economic measures, severe economic measures that the European Union will impose if Turkey persists in its violations.
If Turkey moves ahead with actions it has threatened to carry out, and this is something we will be discussing at the informal meeting of the Council in late August. The discussion was actually moved forward. It was originally slated for the regular Council meeting in September.
The European Union takes stances in favour of International Law. The fact that these stances aren’t always shouted out doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.
JOURNALIST: Does it do so in a timely manner, or are its decisions somewhat delayed, creating accomplished facts or giving Turkey room to attempt to create accomplished facts?
MINISTER: I can’t say that the European endeavour is the fastest mechanism on the planet, because I want to be frank. It is a Union of many states, and each state has a different agenda, so you’re right: coordination among them – even under the terms of International Law, which is absolutely necessary – can sometimes take a while.
But just imagine if the European Union didn’t exist. Imagine where we would be if this framework weren’t available to Greece and the Republic of Cyprus.
JOURNALIST: Minister, in the past, in similar situations – I mean when we were approaching crises and difficult situations – we had interventions from the United States, from Washington, with telephone calls. The Imia crisis, for example. But it is now clear that Washington is no longer focused on our neighbourhood, and Trump seems to have a special fondness for Erdogan. Are you concerned about this lack of support from the U.S. for our country?
MINISTER: I wouldn’t call it a lack of support from the United States, because the United States, through the State Department, has repeatedly taken a clear stance in favour of International Law regarding Greek-Turkish disputes, and I think the U.S. Ambassador here, Mr. Pyatt is an exemplar of statements in this area.
What’s more, President Trump’s personal relationships are President Trump’s business. It’s not my place to comment, but the reality is that we always see a vacuum during the run-up to U.S. elections.
It is also true that the U.S. has shifted more towards the Pacific. This is how it is, and this is something that Greek foreign policy has adapted to, acting accordingly.
But this doesn't mean there’s a vacuum. There are major powers in our region that are member states of the European Union and members of the UN Security Council, such as France, who have developed an independent role beyond the European Union in the region. And of course, Germany plays a separate role beyond its presidency and membership in the European Union.
So, it doesn’t mean there is a complete vacuum in our region. But you’re right, in the run-up to its elections, the United States appears to be somewhat less interested.
JOURNALIST: Now, as we’ve moved on to the topic of alliances, we are obviously satisfied with the stance maintained by Paris and Mr. Macron throughout this situation. France has supported us.
MINISTER: France has always been a serious and firm ally.
JOURNALIST: Because we had the cancelled order for the two frigates we were going to get from France.
MINISTER: First of all, that’s not in my portfolio.
JOURNALIST: No, but it does impact our relations with France.
MINISTER: I don’t think an order was ever placed. I think there were talks, and I don’t know whether it’s been cancelled. Honestly, you may be a step ahead of me on this.
But I want to say that Greek-French relations are very firm relations. They aren’t based on an order or procurement of a weapons system. They are relations between peoples. They are relations between governments – various governments over the course of many years, from Konstantinos Karamanlis to Giscard d'Estaing in 1974. And France’s enormous support for Greece’s effort to become a member of the EEC, now the European Union. So, I think Greek-French relations have a very firm foundation.
Now, beyond that, there are always weapons system issues. The Armed Forces will decide what they need and when to acquire it, depending on the money we have, of course.
JOURNALIST: Let’s go back to Greek-Turkish relations, because I want to understand this open channel of communication, the apparent attempt by both sides to reopen it in order to avoid tension in the region. Are we expecting an initiative from Turkey? Are we expecting more mediation from Berlin?
MINISTER: You took me full circle and brought me back to what you were asking.
JOURNALIST: Exactly that. Do you know why? Because that’s the stage we’re at. We’re at the stage where Erdogan comes and says, “I’m stopping the provocations for at least a month because I’m in dialogue with Greece” ...
MINISTER: You’re waving that month at me again!
JOURNALIST: Erdogan is waving it. I’m waving it? You’re the one telling me that we’re always open to dialogue, but we haven't started any substantial talks with Turkey.
MINISTER: What can I say? We haven’t.
JOURNALIST: That is what I’m saying. So what are we expecting? Are we waiting?
JOURNALIST: Could Germany play a mediating role in this case?
MINISTER: I’ll tell you. Greece is always open to dialogue, under certain conditions. What are these conditions? The conditions are that there be no provocations. Because you can’t have a conversation with a gun to your head. We have said this repeatedly. You can’t be intimidated into holding a dialogue.
If there are no provocations, Greece is always open to holding a dialogue with Turkey. There’s no need for mediation, no need for third parties or fourth parties. Greece has always said – including through the current Prime Minister, Mr. Mitsotakis – that it is willing to talk to Turkey.
Talk to Turkey about what? The actual issue. What is the actual issue? The continental shelf in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean, and the maritime zones over the continental shelf. That’s the issue. Hopefully we’ll be able to discuss it and resolve it.
Your previous guest, Mr. Syrigos, said there have been sixty rounds of exploratory talks without a result. But they were useful talks. Based on those sixty rounds, which is a significant amount of work, we can move ahead, and if Turkey is willing to resolve the issue in the framework of International Law, we will gladly resolve it.
And if we can’t resolve it, we can also go to The Hague and have it resolved there. But Turkey has to realise that this issue must be resolved in the framework of International Law.
A stance that islands don’t have maritime zones or a continental shelf or anything else, except for territorial waters, is not a starting point. Let’s be realistic!
JOURNALIST: I remember, because you and I were both there. I was covering the issue then, at the last meeting that took place between Mr. Erdogan and Kyriakos Mitsotakis in the UK, on the margins of the NATO summit.
MINISTER: Yes, we were all there in December.
JOURNALIST: December, before the lock-downs began. At that time, both sides expressed the view that there needs to be an open channel of communication so that we can talk.
MINISTER: Yes, you’re right.
JOURNALIST: After that, two or three months later, Erdogan did what he did in Evros. Then we have everything happening in the Aegean and the daily flyovers of inhabited islands. People on Patmos have been telling us recently ...
I mean, yes, we're open to dialogue, but how optimistic are you that we can really discuss things.
MINISTER: I’ll tell you. You remember very well that, back then, Erdogan suggested there be a meeting between the two Ministers, myself and Mr. Cavusoglu, whom I've known for a long time, so that we could start talking. And that was a perfectly acceptable proposal. Despite being preceded by the Turkey-Libya Memorandum, which the Greek side had called null and void, so that we understand each other.
But, as you very rightly said, developments prevented there being a climate in which we could hold talks. In other words, how could I have met with Mr. Cavusoglu in March or February with everything that was happening in Evros? What could we have said about the resolution of Greek-Turkish disputes?
Beyond that, if Turkey stops its provocations and creates a climate that allows for dialogue, it will be very good for this dialogue to take place and it would be very good for me to meet with Mr. Cavusoglu at the right time. I will be very pleased to meet with him, but in the right climate that allows for convergence and consensus.
If Turkey continues its violations, what point is there in any discussion? In other words, Turkey’s stopping its violations is a necessary condition for us to pick up where we left off in the exploratory talks.
JOURNALIST: Turkey did take a step back, but it also took a step forward with regard to its provocations, because it issued another NAVTEX for seismic surveys within the Cypriot EEZ. What did you think of that?
MINISTER: First of all, I wouldn’t characterize Turkey steps as forward and backward. Greece has no reason to celebrate. We expect every country in the region to behave in accordance with International Law and reason. So, we are happy that Turkey is taking this stance.
What Turkey is doing with regard to Cyprus is completely unacceptable. And Greece will not back down from its positions as a country acting in accordance with international law. And in the framework of the European Union – in the face of Turkey’s new provocations against the Republic of Cyprus – Greece will support Cyprus. Let’s be clear on that.
The way we see it, Turkey has to treat everyone in accordance with the dictates of International Law.
But on the other hand, I want to say this: The Republic of Cyprus is an independent state. Greece cannot and must not – and this is an enormous trap – stand in for the Republic of Cyprus in the exercise of the sovereign rights and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus.
JOURNALIST: And the Republic of Cyprus doesn’t need us. There handing things just fine.
MINISTER: They don’t need us at all. My colleague Mr. Christodoulides is a very capable Minister, President Anastasiades is a very experienced politician. So, we will continue to support the Republic of Cyprus in its effort to settle the Cyprus problem and in its effort to combat Turkey’s violations of international legality. I’m saying this now to avoid any misunderstandings.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Dendias, are you happy with the support you got domestically from the political system? Because you often talk about the need for unity – and this is very logical – on national issues.
MINISTER: With some exceptions, not many, that prove the rule, I want to acknowledge that the country’s political system has shown great maturity. And this was apparent during the Prime Minister’s meetings with the party leaders.
I repeat, I think that, to a great extent, the main opposition party and KINAL and the other parties maintained a responsible national stance. And this – as I feel it in my capacity as Minister of Foreign Affairs – is the biggest weapon a given Foreign Minister of Greece can have: to go abroad and negotiate on behalf of his homeland, backed by a solid national front.
JOURNALIST: One last question, Mr. Dendias, because we saw yesterday’s photograph of you with the Minister. I thought of welcoming you in the same way today, wearing my mask, but ...
MINISTER: If you’re wearing the mask ahead of the 6 August match next week between Olympiakos and the Wolves, I’m with you. A Greek team is playing at Molineux and we’ll be supporting Olympiacos.
JOURNALIST: There’s a solid front there, too.
JOURNALIST: I must say, at first I thought ...
MINISTER: I’ll tell you the story behind it. I have a personal relationship with my Spanish colleague. I try to have personal relationships with all of my colleague Ministers, and she and her family support a team whose fans have a relationship with Panathinaikos.
Personal relations, personal diplomacy – of which sports diplomacy is a part – is very important. Ties with people can be very useful to the country.
I’ll tell you something else that you didn’t see, because it was very small. When the Hungarian Minister came to Athens a couple of weeks ago, he brought me a gift of Ferenc Puskás cuff links, and to return the gesture, I will take Lajos Détári cuff links to him – the next Hungarian football legend to play in Greece.
JOURNALIST: I was at the airport to welcome Détári!
MINISTER: You’re giving away your age.
JOURNALIST: I was just a kid.
MINISTER: Creating personal relationships is very important in diplomacy, and I’ll tell you when all of this started. In the 1970s, when Nixon, Kissinger and Mao started to open China up through ping-pong diplomacy. And I also support the view that you have to be serious, do your job, and not be too solemn.
JOURNALIST: Right. Thank you very much.
MINISTER: Thank you very much.
July 29, 2020