JOURNALIST: Ladies and gentlemen, good evening. Welcome to our show. Welcome to Ten. Our guest tonight is the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias, who is back in Athens, and with whom we will be discussing the whole range of our national issues. Minister, given that, in your case, we have a situation known in the army as “three days in, one day out,” I’ll start with Italy, where you were the day before yesterday, because we were happy to read the Italian Foreign Minister’s statement, which says he recognizes the EastMed project as being of shared interest. What does this mean, in practical terms? Will Italy sign the agreement, because they’re keeping us in suspense.
N. DENDIAS: There are certain issues for the Italian side that don’t have to do with whether or not they accept the project and the reasoning behind it. These issues concern mainly the point of landfall in Italy, and there are various concerns ...
JOURNALIST: Environmental issues.
N. DENDIAS: It’s more of a local than a broader concern. And because this concerns 5 Stelle, Mr. Di Maio’s party, because the party’s very strong in this area, there is discussion of the possibility of the pipeline’s meeting with the TAP at sea and there being only one landfall point in Italy, which will help a great deal in getting the area to accept it.
JOURNALIST: But do you see the pace picking up?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. This is something that may trouble the Italian government a little. But I think that, in the end, the important issue is agreement with the reasoning behind the project, and in the end, we’ll get there.
JOURNALIST: Regarding delimitation of the EEZ between Greece and Italy, is there any agreement on a time frame? Because we saw a rather vague reaction.
N. DENDIAS: There were discussions ... First of all, we are very close to agreeing on the exact point – it follows the lines of the 1977 continental shelf. There is an issue that has to do with certain fishing rights to a small red shrimp, which the Italians want and largely doesn't concern Greek fishermen. And there is also a discussion of safeguarding these rights between 6 and 12 miles. That’s the issue.
JOURNALIST: And the time frame?
N. DENDIAS: You know, it may be self-defeating for me to specify a time frame. But, in any case ...
JOURNALIST: No, it has broader significance for the Aegean.
N. DENDIAS: You’re absolutely right, and I won’t hide the fact that it is one of the main reasons I went to Rome – to discuss this and to talk about the Libyan issue. I don’t think we’re far off, but I might be misleading you if I gave you an exact point in time.
JOURNALIST: In any event, we wouldn’t say that the statement we read was theoretical or made for PR reasons.
N. DENDIAS: No, not at all.
JOURNALIST: In other words, things are moving ahead regarding both the EastMed and the EEZ. But we’ve also been very close to an agreement in the past, but in the end ...
N. DENDIAS: I think elections were called, I don’t remember now, here in Greece or in Italy. Something came up. In other words, there was no falling-out with the Italian side.
JOURNALIST: I wanted to ask, are the EastMed talks really not theoretical? What’s the time horizon for the project?
N. DENDIAS: Look, beyond that, the carrying out of the project as such is beyond my knowledge, and anything I can tell you is what the competent Minister tells me. I think Kostis Chatzidakis can fill you in. But to us, more broadly speaking, the EastMed is not just a pipeline for carrying energy to the West and diversifying the West’s sources away from the gas or oil coming from Russia. It is a broader way of seeing things ...
JOURNALIST: It is shaping alliances and geopolitical interests.
N. DENDIAS: In my view, Mr. Dellatolas, ...
JOURNALIST: It is also a political tool.
N. DENDIAS: ... it creates understanding. No one is excluded from these understandings.
JOURNALIST: Before Olga takes you further east, let’s stay on Italy. We have the sense that Italy, with regard to the Libyan issue, at least at first, was a little non-committal. On this trip you took, what’s important is the current state of affairs. As the Minister of Foreign Affairs, do you have a clearer picture of where the Italians stand on the issue that arose?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. I think Italy – we all know this – supported the Sarraj side, the administration, the government in Tripoli. This was its initial stance. And in fact we had used the Italian side, I and the Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis – he spoke to Mr. Conte and Mr. Conte mediated; he called Mr. Sarraj to stop him from signing the Turkey-Libya memorandum that, at the time, he was allegedly going to sign. The government in Tripoli deceived the Italians, just as it did us. But Italy acted appropriately towards us. Beyond that, with the Italian side seeing that the government in Tripoli, to a great extent, isn’t acting in accordance with the understanding it had with Rome, I think Italy has changed its stance considerably. Of course, it hasn’t switched to the Haftar side, no. But on the level of Greece’s positions, Italy acted impeccably, not only in the Council, but also during my visit to Rome. Their statements are completely ...
JOURNALIST: But with a slight delay, I would say. And in the meantime there were some articles in the press that perhaps played a role. You will know better. For instance, there was the article in Corriere della Sera that was very critical of the Italian government for maintaining a stance that was, shall we say, ambiguous.
N. DENDIAS: I read the Corriere della Sera. It’s a very good newspaper, by the way, since you brought it up, and it has leveled broad criticism at the Italian government. But I am obliged to say, and to say it clearly, that the Greek government is completely satisfied with the Italian stance on the level of statements and on the level of positions taken in the Council of Ministers. They have stood by us and fully support us on the issue of the memoranda between Turkey and Libya.
JOURNALIST: Now let’s go to the issue that arose over Imia, with the statements from Erdogan, which we are discussing because they essentially reassert – in his own way, in the familiar way – the grey-zones theory. In fact, this issue is complicated, in a way that, to me, lacks substance or significance, the issue of what Mr. Panagiotopoulos said, whether he said it, etc. But could you give us a clear, fact-based answer, as it involves the grey-zones issue?
N. DENDIAS: Clear answer – you’re asking the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
JOURNALIST: A diplomatic clear answer.
JOURNALIST: An Ionian-islands answer, I’ll add.
N. DENDIAS: Excuse me, let me get a joke in. Of course I’ll give you a clear answer, because the ...
JOURNALIST: After all, you’ve been accused of laughing more that ministers usually do.
N. DENDIAS: You’re right, but I’ve decided ...
JOURNALIST: Even about this, right?
N. DENDIAS: ... not to depress Greek society because we’re going through a crisis. I think Greek society has been through so much that it deserves to see a smile or two. I’ll tell you. First of all, there can be no understanding or consultation with the Turkish side on matters like this. Now, beyond that, hopes that tensions won’t be created with the Turkish side are expressed often and by many people. And in this sense they are useful. In other words, I’m pleased when I hear the Turkish side say, “we don’t want tensions with Greece.” Up to there. All the rest is, I think, more or less political babble, and I think all of the competent officials have made the statements they needed to make for us to avoid any ...
JOURNALIST: Beyond the incident ...
JOURNALIST: Wait a minute. The reason I’m asking this, and I thought a lot about whether or not to raise this topic, because in reality ...
N. DENDIAS: But you decided to ask.
JOURNALIST: I’ll tell you why you’re sorry – okay, we’ll comment on that later – because, look here, there is still Erdogan’s version, on the one hand, of what happened in a specific conversation between a Greek and a Turkish official.– But on the other hand, it is also a public claim from Turkey, which says that Greece agreed with the theory of grey zones. So, in that sense I got over my concerns and asked this question.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, I understand, Mrs. Tremi. I understand perfectly and you were very right to ask, beyond anything else. Public opinion deserves to learn about such things. I say again, no Greek Minister can have understandings on this level with the Turkish side. It is beyond the current exchange of views. But because I also want to be accurate, both sides often express the hope that tensions won’t be created. This is the only context in which we have understandings with the Turks.
JOURNALIST: We’re to understand that a non-presence in Imia in no way constitutes, for your government, acceptance of the grey area.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Dellatolas, no Greek government – not just ours, not just the Mitsotakis government – no Greek government can accept the greying of areas of Greek territory. No Greek government can accept this. It's not a matter of whether it’s at our discretion, whether we phrase our thinking correctly, whether we like it. It can’t happen!
JOURNALIST: On the other hand, is there really any need to commemorate the Imia incident or hold ceremonies? We know that, in recent years, Imia-related ceremonies have essentially been nationalistic in content and concern the Greek political stage and in particular the extreme right. Isn’t that right?
JOURNALIST: Three people were killed. No one is giving them to the extreme right or anywhere else.
JOURNALIST: Regardless of whether you hold a ceremony.
N. DENDIAS: We lost three officers there and we owe much to their memory. But beyond that, the specific date had really become a tool for promoting specific individuals who served the ... position of Minister of Defence. That’s the truth.
JOURNALIST: Shall we go to the Oruc Reis? The initial version was that it was carried by the current, but thanks to Mr. Panagiotopoulos, again, we were informed that the Oruc Reis had started to move, to leave the Cypriot EEZ and to move towards the Greek continental shelf on Thursday night, and that we immediately went on high alert. Can we please clear this up? Because there was confusion here as well. And it was, if you will, from a certain point on, like a gag: It got caught in the current. It didn’t get caught in the current, etc.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you.
JOURNALIST: We were reminded of “General Wind”. But this time it was an admiral.
N. DENDIAS: That was a long time ago. How did you remember that? What can I say? I can simply say, because I am speaking as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, that there was no incident regarding the course of the specific vessel. Now, beyond that, as to why and how ...
JOURNALIST: But was it a test of our reflexes?
N. DENDIAS: No. I don't believe it was a test of our reflexes.
JOURNALIST: What was it? A random event?
N. DENDIAS: I don't believe it was a test of our reflexes, Mrs. Tremi.
JOURNALIST: But it was something. What was it?
JOURNALIST: I saw here that you told Yannis Pretenteris, on Proto Thema, that we should turn the page on this issue. Which means it wasn’t handled or communicated ideally.
JOURNALIST: In other words, let it go?
N. DENDIAS: Because I want to be frank with you, I don’t think our communication was excellent on this particular issue. It really is as you say.
JOURNALIST: You know, we were also surprised by something else. The fact that the Minister of Defence, during the cutting of the New Year’s cake in Kavala, gave a detailed account of the course of this particular survey vessel, the reactions from the Greek side. And he shared actual dialogues he had had with the Prime Minister during the handling of this problem. It could have developed into a crisis, and I want you to tell me, in all honesty, whether it’s common for a Minister of Defence to operate in this manner. I’m sorry. He’s a colleague of yours. But, you know, he isn’t the Minister of Agriculture, he’s the Minister of Defence.
N. DENDIAS: I don't want to judge a colleague of whom I’m very fond. I think Nikos Panagiotopoulos is a very skilled politician. A conscientious Minister who is really fighting to ensure that our country’s Armed Forces are at the level they need to be, whether in terms of spare parts or in terms of preparedness and so on. Beyond that, I’m not the one to judge.
JOURNALIST: We had – would you like to say something?
JOURNALIST: I wanted to ask, I wanted to say something. We often talk about things we don’t know about in terms of crisis. I read an article by an expert, in yesterday’s TA NEA – Petros Liakouras, at the University of Piraeus.
JOURNALIST: We’ve had him on the show.
JOURNALIST: We’ve had him on the show, and he describes exactly what happened. He says, for the above to have happened – in other words, everything being discussed here regarding the specific vessel – the survey vessel would have to carry out a survey, which means echo sounder cables scanning the seabed, which requires the vessel to move in a specific way in order to collect the magnetic waves. Anyway, the professor said this didn’t happen. There wasn’t enough time and the vessel wasn’t capable of doing it. Consequently, he says, if the vessel isn't carrying out a survey it is sailing in the open sea and acting in line with the rules of international navigation. And thus, professor Liakouras says, the Greek media are essentially blowing this out of proportion.
JOURNALIST: This is different from what was said on the two vessels’ radios.
JOURNALIST: If it’s as you say, as the professor says, but I assume that the Minister we have, we wouldn’t have any reason to send our own vessel, I assume. To sail out and monitor the survey vessel.
JOURNALIST: I don’t know. The Minister is here. He’ll tell us.
JOURNALIST: In other words, would we send the Nikiforos Fokas vessel out there in such a hurry if we hadn’t assessed things differently?
N. DENDIAS: Let’s say it was done just in case.
JOURNALIST: For some time now, your colleagues and Ministers expressed the view that Turkey is isolated. You didn’t adopt that from the outset, saying, in fact, that you don’t want an isolated Turkey. You want a Turkey that is engaged.
N. DENDIAS: I don’t want Turkey to be isolated.
JOURNALIST: By this I want to say and ask whether the round of visits you carried out on the diplomatic level – picking up the baton from the Syriza government’s agreement with Egypt and Israel – got the expected results in the region, because the U.S. is another parameter. An important one, but a different one.
N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you. First of all, our relations with Israel and Egypt go back a long way. I also want to say – because I don’t go in for party stereotypes or blinders – I am very happy that Syriza continued this policy. The Syriza government continued this policy, and, with regard to Israel, I imagine it wasn't easy for the Syriza government. But it is important for the country that it stayed on the tracks of Greek foreign policy as they had been laid down. Now, what are we trying to do? We are trying to create an understanding of views. What is logical. What is legal. What is right in the region. And it is very significant that most of the players in the region, if not almost all of them, agree with our way of seeing things, which is not Greek. It’s not our right. It is what is in keeping with international law. That is what we are pursuing. Because if this happens, then we expect Turkey, too, to adopt this view or at least not to operate in a manner opposed to the vast majority of the states in the wider region. Because this isn’t easy for Turkey. But I repeat, we never tried to isolate Turkey and we are not trying to isolate Turkey now. We don’t want that. It doesn’t help. We want open channels of communication. We want Turkey to understand how things are. What is right, what is also critical to Turkey.
JOURNALIST: Yes, but you told us Turkey had been isolated diplomatically, when in fact this isn’t ...
N. DENDIAS: I didn’t say that.
JOURNALIST: You didn’t, but it was said, mainly by the government, Minister, and I think this is unfortunately belied by the reality of the situation. Because, first of all, Erdogan does whatever he wants to, on the one hand, and at the same time he’s on an open line with the powers on the planet, apart from Macron, who is clearly against him.
N. DENDIAS: Mrs. Tremi, let me say ... first of all, allow me to repeat that neither the Mitsotakis government nor the Prime Minister wants an isolated Turkey. An isolated country, any completely isolated country, is dangerous at the end of the day.
JOURNALIST: We agree completely.
N. DENDIAS: So, we want open channels of communication. Now, beyond that, you are presenting, you are conveying, and rightly so, the broader perception of a portion of Greek public opinion, which says that Turkey exercised a successful foreign policy, it forced situations. President Erdogan talks with everyone and is sitting at the table with the planet’s powers.
JOURNALIST: No, I’m not expressing a broader analysis. I’m giving a snapshot of the moment.
N. DENDIAS: I hope we can.
JOURNALIST: My broader analysis is different, anyway.
N. DENDIAS: I hope we can clarify the picture.
JOURNALIST: My broader analysis is different.
N. DENDIAS: What has Turkey accomplished? Turkey has problematic relations with all of the countries around it. A few days back, they were saying Turkey and Russia were on a shared course and would become a very powerful axis. That collapsed.
JOURNALIST: It’s been disrupted. I don't know if it has collapsed. It could be back on track tomorrow.
N. DENDIAS: Great, it's been disrupted. I agree with your phrasing. But it is being disrupted in a way that shows there is no axis. Moreover, in my humble opinion, Turkey is making ... I’m not the one to tell President Erdogan what is in the interest of his country and his society. He’s making a huge mistake. When Kemal Ataturk abandoned the tradition of the Ottoman Empire to create the new Turkish state, in effect he closed the chasms that divided Turkey from the countries over which the Ottoman Empire exercised brutal domination. Now, bringing back the neo-Ottomanism, President Erdogan is reopening these chasms. The Arab world is not at all prepared to accept a neo-Ottoman Turkey. Their efforts are a wrong approach.
JOURNALIST: At least not all of them.
JOURNALIST: Look, I said my broader analysis is different. In other words, it’s true what you say: that there is a trend toward the formation of a strong anti-Turkish front in the countries of North Africa.
N. DENDIAS: And on the Arabian Peninsula and in the Middle East.
JOURNALIST: On the other hand, Erdogan’s clash with Putin in Syria made a very big impression, and that made it clear who is the boss and who, if you will, is being used by the boss to promote the boss’s agenda. I don’t disagree with any of that. In fact, to a large extent it is my own analysis. On the other hand, however, to come to a factor that we haven’t discussed yet. The United States. We have the State Department, which says Turkey’s agreement with Libya is provocative and unhelpful. But we also have President Trump, who talks to Erdogan on the phone and says – work things out, guys. Are we satisfied with this “work things out”? And what does this mean, in practice? What does it mean?
N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you. First of all, as always, the U.S. has multiple centres of power, each with its own significance. There’s not just the statement you mentioned. There is another statement from the State Department that clearly, for the first time, clearly recognises the Greek argument on the continental shelf and the exclusive economic zones of the islands, saying it is in accordance with international law and that Turkey’s perception is not in accordance with international law. There is the view of the legislative bodies, the Senate and the House of Representatives, in the East Med Act, which rebukes Turkey. They want to see Greece’s effort.
JOURNALIST: If and when.
N. DENDIAS: There is no question.
JOURNALIST: We said, Ilias said this has ...
JOURNALIST: This is a domestic issue for them – who’s in charge.
JOURNALIST: The future ...
N. DENDIAS: But Turkey is out of the F-35 program.
JOURNALIST: It’s out.
JOURNALIST: It’s who’s in charge. It’s a domestic issue, a domestic conflict, over who’s in charge of national security and defence issues I mean, since you mentioned the East Med Act. Because Trump was against it. Precisely on this basis, not because he doesn’t like the East Med Act. But it's a matter of who decides on these issues in the United States.
N. DENDIAS: But he subscribed to the EastMed Act. And apart from all of this, because I was in the oval office during the open-door discussion – which wasn't as important, of course – and during the closed-door part of the talks between Mr. Mitsotakis and President Trump. I have to say that I didn’t see Trump as being opposed to Greece’s positions. I think the fact that he really does tend to consider Erdogan someone with whom he can talk on the phone, often calling him a friend – which I assume is true for a number of leaders in the world – has to do with the personality of this particular U.S. President. But I think Greece’s relations with the U.S. are closer right now than they have ever been.
JOURNALIST: Luckily, he said he is a friend, not a partner.
JOURNALIST: But if there were a crisis between Greece and Turkey, could Trump – the President at a given time, which is Trump right now – could he call and say, “calm down, work it out.”
JOURNALIST: What does “work it out” mean?
N. DENDIAS: I think if someone needed to do it, it would be done by the Secretary of State, Mr. Pompeo, and I think this was precisely his meaning – an open assurance to Greek society – in the letter he sent to Kyriakos Mitsotakis.
JOURNALIST: Look, you mean Mr. Pompeo.
N. DENDIAS: Right.
JOURNALIST: Look, I want to stay on this subject.
JOURNALIST: ... the date it was sent on?
N. DENDIAS: It had one, of course, I’ll tell you why.
JOURNALIST: Because you have to respond to this. Either you play the fool a little in Parliament or you don’t want to help.
N. DENDIAS: You know, I don’t want to tell anyone how to ...
JOURNALIST: Would it be wrong to say, “here’s the date”?
N. DENDIAS: Every such letter is accompanied by a transit document. In other words, there’s a transit document, and on the back it says, “Mr./Mrs ... sends the letter of such and such a date, and the letter is on the back.
JOURNALIST: He doesn’t send another 10 to other recipients.
N. DENDIAS: No, that’s not how it is.
JOURNALIST: Minister, I want to come back to “work it out.” In other words, I don’t like it at all.
N. DENDIAS: Why don’t you see it as positive?
JOURNALIST: I’ll tell you why. It’s like someone threatening someone, and a third party observing the scene says, “work it out among yourselves.”
N. DENDIAS: Look at the other interpretation, honestly. If President Trump had pressured us on something, he might not have told you outright, but you’d be treated differently overall. And I should tell you that Mr. Pompeo was there during the one-on-one talks, along with Mr. Pence, the vice president, and O’Brien, the new national security advisor. President Trump didn’t just not put pressure on Greece – he showed complete understanding for Mitsotakis’s statements and Greece’s positions.
JOURNALIST: Do you trust him? Because the mildest characterization I see of Trump in the international press is that he is extremely unpredictable.
N. DENDIAS: Mrs. Tremi, I want to be frank. It is my constitutional duty to trust Greek society and the Greek armed forces. Everyone else is a representative of another country with whom Greece’s interests either converge or diverge. And depending on that, I rank our stance.
JOURNALIST: I want to ask something, and as we’ve been talking, I’ve been trying to find a way to phrase it that ...
N. DENDIAS: You’re thinking of a tricky way to phrase it.
JOURNALIST: No, not at all. I really want an answer, even if it’s only a diplomatic one. There are two prevailing outlooks in the public debate on Greek-Turkish relations. And it has been the topic of discussion at this table, with disagreements with Ilias, with professors and so on. One tends, not unquestioningly, towards the view that we should go to The Hague with these issues, through a process, obviously. And there is another view that says – critically, of you – that we need diplomacy that is more aggressive than it currently is. I really don’t know where the middle ground is. The right path is probably somewhere in the middle, because we’re not talking about war. You said you don’t want to go to The Hague if the right conditions haven’t been created – because they’ll take your grandmother's house in Paxi.
N. DENDIAS: No, I said we can’t go to the Hague to discuss the ownership of the house my grandmother left me. We’re not going ...
JOURNALIST: To discuss sovereign issues. What are the ...
JOURNALIST: Yes, but is there such a dilemma?
JOURNALIST: No, not at all. Some people might think so, because they say we should go there and sign, and see who’s right.
JOURNALIST: In other words, The Hague or war?
N. DENDIAS: No.
JOURNALIST: Various professors have said we should go to The Hague to see what divides us. What divides us? If we go to The Hague with another agenda, we’ll lose things we don’t even have. So, I ask – and the criticism focuses on this – could we have a more aggressive policy designed to avert an incident, let’s say?
N. DENDIAS: A lot of people tell me – sometimes I hear this in Parliament – that we need a more determined policy. When I ask what exactly they mean – specific targeting of measures or moves – I don’t get a response. It's a vague position. I’m saying what the Mitsotakis government’s priority is and what I have been assigned to do by the Prime Minister, who put me in this position. To try to safeguard the Greek economy’s ability to grow and Greek society’s ability to live in peace, defending the national territory and our national and sovereign rights. That is my job description. That is what the government is trying to do. If someone asks the Mitsotakis government to take Greece into war with Turkey, that isn’t in the job description I was given. We don’t want that. We want there to be a modern European country with open channels of communication – a country that defends its sovereignty and sovereign rights. I think that at the current time, a difficult time, things are very tense, let’s not kid ourselves – but I must say that, amidst this, there has been a very welcome trend towards de-escalation in recent days.
JOURNALIST: That’s the most interesting thing you’ve said, because everything else ...
N. DENDIAS: That’s what I see. It wasn’t the same. The atmosphere was very tense in the previous days.
JOURNALIST: Would this de-escalation help more towards taking us to a calmer period when the Munich meeting takes place? Are we going to be there? Because I hear there are also ...
N. DENDIAS: I will ...
JOURNALIST: May I complete the question?
N. DENDIAS: Please, of course.
JOURNALIST: I’ve heard – we were discussing this with Olga before we came in – there are reports that an effort is being made for the Prime Minister to be there with Erdogan, and perhaps you and Cavusoglu.
N. DENDIAS: As far as I know, the Prime Minister will not be going to Munich. I’ll be going to Munich.
JOURNALIST: Cavusoglu?
N. DENDIAS: Cavusoglu will go to Munich.
JOURNALIST: Will you meet?
JOURNALIST: You, as?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll be going as Minister of Foreign Affairs. Beyond that ...
JOURNALIST: But invited? Because it’s the continuation of the Berlin meeting.
N. DENDIAS: To clarify things, this is a forum, like Davos. Yes, I have been invited. A meeting hasn’t been scheduled. The invitation I have received from Mr. Cavusoglu – I won't hide from you that fact that I have known Mr. Cavusoglu for 17 or 18 years. We have a personal relationship, and I've never hidden that.
JOURNALIST: Yes.
N. DENDIAS: He has invited me in the context of another forum, in Antalya. I’ve said I am considering it favourably. Of course, we have to have a climate that allows me to go, because our country can’t appear to be dragged there under pressure, intimidation or accomplished facts.
JOURNALIST: So we’re not talking about a meeting with Erdogan.
JOURNALIST: Well, but on neutral ground ...
N. DENDIAS: No, no.
JOURNALIST: Oh, not Erdogan, but maybe Cavusoglu.
N. DENDIAS: It is our principle to always be open to discussion. This is why we have the political dialogue, the exploratory talks, the confidence-building measures.
JOURNALIST: Have the confidence-building measures started?
N. DENDIAS: Yes, a date has been set. We haven't got to the exploratory talks yet. But to have a meeting, there first has to be a climate of understanding. I must say that ...
JOURNALIST: But Munich isn’t Berlin 2, as it has ...
N. DENDIAS: No, no.
JOURNALIST: It’s another thing.
N. DENDIAS: But in Munich there is something, a side event, that is a follow-up to the Berlin meeting ...
JOURNALIST: Yes, but we’re not in that.
N. DENDIAS: We’re not there, no. We’re not there. We’ll see how we get involved in this process, because, bear in mind, Berlin and Palermo are two different things. One is a German initiative, and Palermo, which Mr. Tsipras attended, is an Italian initiative. They aren’t the same.
JOURNALIST: In other words, you’re saying that this side event in Munich is the continuation of the Berlin conference?
N. DENDIAS: No, the Munich meeting is an annual security forum ...
JOURNALIST: Not where you’ll be going. At the other meeting, next door.
N. DENDIAS: The other is one of the follow-ups to Berlin, not the overall follow-up.
JOURNALIST: A follow-up. An individual follow-up.
N. DENDIAS: Individual.
JOURNALIST: What is your goal? For us to be observers, at least?
N. DENDIAS: Our goal is for the overall direction of this discussion to move towards the thinking behind the Greek and European positions.
JOURNALIST: Some time ago, you said in an interview that a key parameter of the Libya issue is who will prevail in the end. If one of the groups in Libya prevails as the government. Do we have a picture, of late, of which direction this is heading in? Following the Haftar visits?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you, the Haftar side has been considerably strengthened, which is to be expected. It controls about 90% of the territory. There has been a weakening of Sarraj on the other side – a result of the balance of power right now. Turkey is trying to keep Sarraj in the game through support, mercenaries – we know this – breaking the arms embargo there. Beyond that, it's very difficult to predict how things will go in Libya. But what doesn’t look at all feasible right now is for the Sarraj side, the Tripoli side, to prevail overall. That’s probably not a possibility.
JOURNALIST: What is it that makes us optimistic, Minister, that any change we see in Libya in any direction – because, as you say, no one can predict what will happen there – will automatically lead to the voiding of the Turkey-Libya agreement? Even if Haftar prevails, if you will. Is there any guarantee? There isn’t.
N. DENDIAS: Look, with the Haftar side we do have a guarantee, as we do with the Libyan house of representatives – in other words, with the Libyan army, because there are three recognized authorities in Libya.
JOURNALIST: Yes, yes.
N. DENDIAS: One is the Sarraj government – the government in Tripoli. The other is the army, Haftar. The third is the house of representatives. The Libyan house of representatives, which is the only elected body, has voted to void the memoranda. Thus, if legality prevails at some point in Libya, in the way the European Union or the western world perceives legality, the memoranda will automatically be voided. They will be considered null and void.
JOURNALIST: So, you’re saying ...
N. DENDIAS: I’m not saying anything is certain. Nothing is certain, right?
JOURNALIST: No, listen. I’m saying something else. I’m saying that the new leader of Libya, whoever it may be, might like the agreement and the house of representative might vote again.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you, Mrs. Tremi.
JOURNALIST: They can vote and reverse previous resolutions.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you, and I’m coming back to what we said earlier about the past of the Ottoman Empire. There is strong anti-Turkish sentiment in Libya. Most of the tribes, because Libya is a tribal society – over 30 tribes – and most of the tribes are clearly anti-Turkish.
JOURNALIST: They can’t reach an understanding.
N. DENDIAS: That’s another thing. But all of the ...
JOURNALIST: We’re one tribe, and we can’t agree.
N. DENDIAS: All of them agree, or almost all. There are two exceptions that don’t agree that there is no future for the Turkish presence in Libya. And Tunisia agrees with this, though it doesn’t agree with the Haftar side on other issues. I understand that Algeria agrees, too. I’ll be going there the day after tomorrow. And please observe Libya’s reaction the day after ...
JOURNALIST: I’m concerned. Dendias is going to stay in Greece for a day or two? I’m truly concerned.
N. DENDIAS: Tunisia’s reaction the day after President Erdogan departed from Tunisia. Erdogan presented his visit as a shared outlook on Libya, and starting the next day, Tunisia made it very clear that is not the case.
JOURNALIST: Olga asked something earlier, and I’d like to go back to that – or maybe Ilias asked. I don't remember. That what has been happening in Syria in recent days might be creating a lull in hostility. I’m asking something else: beyond what we’re discussing – diplomatic moves and how good they are, how aggressive they should be – one key question is worrying people a great deal. Might we have a heated incident? Do you think what is happening in Syria, the moves you are making – have we moved away from an incident that might have been planned by Erdogan? Your assessment.
N. DENDIAS: I hope Turkey didn't plan anything like that. On the other hand, I must say that ...
JOURNALIST: You hope, you say. You’re not certain.
N. DENDIAS: No, I’m not certain.
JOURNALIST: In other words, you’re not certain that something like this isn’t in their strategic planning.
N. DENDIAS: No, Mrs. Tremi, I can’t be certain.
JOURNALIST: No, I’m asking.
N. DENDIAS: We are dealing with Turkey based on two possible scenarios: a country that, with its own unique characteristics, is pursuing dialogue with us, and a country that is not pursuing dialogue with us and is trying to provoke us. We see both scenarios. My only observation – because I can't make suppositions, I can’t tell the future, and no one gives me the right to make suppositions – is that in recent days there have been indications of a de-escalation from the tension of the previous weeks.
JOURNALIST: It's been said that Greece would find itself alone if there were a heated incident. I don’t want to ask, because hope and optimism die last. I want to ask you about this change being discussed in our strategic relationship with France – in other words, if it evolves into a mutual assistance agreement. First, whether this might happen any time soon, and second, whether this means, in practice, that, God forbid, if anything should happen, France will stand by us operationally.
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn't like to go into specifics. I’ll just say what I constantly repeat: that, first, we can handle things on our own if the worst should happen and we have a heated incident. And second, even though we can handle it alone, we will not be alone.
JOURNALIST: What is the greatest danger? Because I read it somewhere and I found it very interesting. That Erdogan might underestimate our capability, our strength, while of course at the same time underestimating Greece’s resolve to defend its territory?
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn’t like to refer specifically to President Erdogan. But I will say that, in life in general, the worst thing is always hubris, in the ancient Greek sense of the word. Hubris is always followed by nemesis.
JOURNALIST: So, you think that all of this revisionism on the part of Turkey has the characteristics of hubris? Couldn’t one say that Turkey is essentially changing its orientation? It is leaving Europe and trying to ...
N. DENDIAS: I sincerely hope this is the case, because I am one of the people who have hopes for and believe in Turkey ... in the distant future? In the distant future it will become a European country and will participate in the system of values that the West as a whole participates in – in other words, the perception of humanity rooted in the Enlightenment. So, I’m not ready to subscribe, necessarily, to the view of Turkey as a revisionist state, in spite of the considerable number of indications in that direction. So, I want to be honest with you. But I continue to hope that Turkey will see its clear interest in the western way of life and western society.
JOURNALIST: There are pockets, naturally – in the country’s society and politics.
N. DENDIAS: Very large pockets.
JOURNALIST: The thing is, you know what it means for a country to be essentially broken in two. Two different cultures.
N. DENDIAS: We are not the ones to show a large country, a proud country, how to determine its future. We can hope for what is, in our opinion, good for them and good for us.
JOURNALIST: There’s a proposal from Syriza-KINAL. If you’d like I can say it as one word, due to the recent articles calling for the Council of political leaders to be convened under the President of the Republic. And people are saying: Why not? I see caution on the part of the government. It is afraid of a lack of agreement on individual issues overall?
N. DENDIAS: You know, I’ll tell you.
JOURNALIST: Or maybe you don’t want to show? But not show what? There are things happening every day.
N. DENDIAS: There is an order. First of all, this question should be answered by the Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis, who would take the initiative to propose to the President that this Council be convened. My constitutional role covers the Council on Foreign Policy. I have convened it once, and I’m convening it again on 18 February.
JOURNALIST: Are you happy with the results of the first meeting?
N. DENDIAS: Yes, very happy. There was a great deal of ...
JOURNALIST: Do you think the conditions for solidarity were ensured?
N. DENDIAS: There was solidarity and seriousness, and I must say this in honour of the parties. There was solidarity and seriousness. Everyone saw – it was at a critical moment, things were very serious – everyone saw how critical the moment was, and they conducted themselves accordingly during and after the meeting. And I am indebted to the country’s political system for that.
JOURNALIST: Let’s talk about a subject that has been called national because it derives from the tensions in the region, and I mean Syria and the refugees. The Prime Minister has admitted – via the changes he made, reversing his decision on the matter of the Ministry and various services ...
JOURNALIST: We’re talking about the migration issue, now.
JOURNALIST: ... that the best preparation wasn't made or that you weren’t so well prepared. We see a great deal of tension. There are no easy solutions, obviously, but there are a lot of plans on paper, a lot of “shalls”, “result”, “fast”, “effective” – we were saying this the day before yesterday with guests, so as to lighten this climate, and we don’t see the islands.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. We didn’t get excellent marks on the migration issue. Yes, we all know it, we agree. The Prime Minister made some corrections – major corrections. I think the system will get results. It really isn’t easy. I handled the migration issue from 2012 to 2014. I think I know. It’s not an easy issue. It’s not an easy issue. The reality is that it has been made more difficult when another country, in part, uses it as leverage against the European Union and Greece.
JOURNALIST: Meanwhile, is there a possibility the European Union will revise the way it is currently dealing with the migration issue? In other words, as a problem for every country?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. Some European countries need to understand that we will have to deal with the migration issue for decades. When Europe is gradually becoming a retirement home, and around us there are continents, large continents, Asia and Africa, which are actually nurseries, the movement from the nursery to the retirement home will naturally continue to happen.
JOURNALIST: That’s a very special stance, and I thank you for it.
N. DENDIAS: If you add to this the fact that an intermediate country is using it as leverage, this makes the effort to resolve the issue more difficult. We have to be honest and realistic.
JOURNALIST: The Opposition is criticising you for not putting enough pressure on Europe to change its position, even though – Ilias was right the day before yesterday – there is a part in the joint declaration that makes it more difficult for refugees to move to the mainland.
JOURNALIST: To be realistic – Antonis, Minister, Ilias – what Europe are we talking about? Angela Merkel is up to her ears in economic problems, the rise of the extreme right in Germany, and Erdogan is handling her just fine on the migration issue. Angela Merkel can’t bring it into her domestic politics. If Merkel can’t bring it in, how will Europe investigate the matter of responsibility, which it is clear they have?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, Chancellor Merkel, in my humble opinion, created highways with her 2015 statement, right?
JOURNALIST: Right, but we’re talking about 2020.
N. DENDIAS: And now Germany has developed a phobia of the migration issue.
JOURNALIST: Now it has an extreme-right party.
N. DENDIAS: Exactly. And the rise of the extreme right doesn’t function as an overall threat. So right now, the German political system – on the major challenges of the times – is in a phase of transition. Probably to the post-Merkel era. What is it that we are trying to do? With the power we have, with the alliances we can build, we are pursuing the creation of an integrated system for handling this, and integrated asylum system, and integrated system of returns, and integrated system for distributing them internally in the European Union.
JOURNALIST: We know what we want.
N. DENDIAS: Can we get it?
JOURNALIST: That is the question.
N. DENDIAS: We’re doing everything we can.
JOURNALIST: I don’t see a lot of willingness on the part of Europe.
N. DENDIAS: There are specific countries that are not just unwilling – they are totally opposed.
JOURNALIST: Yes, of course. Hungary, for example.
N. DENDIAS: Let’s be frank.
JOURNALIST: Let’s tell it like it is. So, we’ll be continuing shortly. Let’s go to commercials.
[…]
JOURNALIST: Back to our conversation with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias. We’ll talk about The Hague shortly, but first let’s finish our discussion of the migration issue.
JOURNALIST: Throw out your net.
JOURNALIST: Yes, I’ll throw out a net. Minister, we know very little of course. In other words, we know it is 2.7 kilometers long and will cost €500,000. Beyond that, we don’t know how many entry points it will cover, because there are about 30, what maintenance costs are, how effective it is, whether it will cause problems with free navigation, and of course whether it conflicts with human rights issues, because the European Union is already annoyed. It seems very complicated to me.
N. DENDIAS: The migration issue is such a difficult issue that it’s reasonable to expect a lot of efforts to find a lot of solutions. Now, beyond that, we’ll see how it works when implemented, if it is implemented. I think this is being handled by the Deputy Minister of Defence, Mr. Stefanis. I’m certain he has considered all of the relevant parameters, and beyond that he’ll see it during implementation.
JOURNALIST: I don’t see the net happening.
JOURNALIST: I don't see it either. And I don’t see any enthusiasm for the net, anyway.
N. DENDIAS: I don’t think anyone will start by saying, “Oh, a net. How nice!”
JOURNALIST: How nice. Let’s now go to the matter of The Hague, which is causing much debate. There is a relevant...
N. DENDIAS: It’s not that easy to go to The Hague, too much talk...
JOURNALIST: I mean referring the matter of The Hague, of course.
N. DENDIAS: I know.
JOURNALIST: But you're fond of humour, as are we. There is some vagueness, which gives rise to concern. For example, we're at the point where the Secretary of the Parliamentary Group of your party, New Democracy, uploads posts about which briefcase we should be taking with us to The Hague, concerned, as if we were carrying overweight baggage. So, shall we start there, with the briefcase or rucksack or however else we might call it? Will it contain the continental shelf? The EEZ? The Aegean Sea and the Eastern Mediterranean, even something else?
N. DENDIAS
JOURNALIST: This specific problem.
N. DENDIAS: This specific problem.
JOURNALIST: Which will include what I said previously? Let us be specific.
N. DENDIAS: As I always say, and perhaps I’m being misunderstood, because, as you can see, I’m trying to find reason to smile in all this, is that if my friend, Mr. Çavuşoğlu, for example, were to come to me and ask me to go with him to The Hague to resolve the issue of ownership over the house that my grandmother left me in Paxi, I will not agree. I cannot agree. Therefore, I think there is a predetermined framework in place.
JOURNALIST: May I ask a question?
N. DENDIAS: Please, go ahead.
JOURNALIST: Let us image, for example, the Turks say that the issues include the matter of demilitarization of islands, provided for in the Lausanne Treaty.
N. DENDIAS: Look, and this is my frank opinion, as I was reading a relevant book the other day, I truly think that it is so clear, so very clear, that it would be the subject of an honest discussion between two people and would be very easy to resolve, for example, by a first-year Greek law student and a first-year Turkish law student, but both acting in good faith, right? Both acting in good faith.
JOURNALIST: That is key.
N. DENDIAS: If they were to discuss it, I believe they would resolve it. I do believe they would.
JOURNALIST: As everything has to do with the juncture, what we call “timing” on the island of Tinos, isn’t it a bit odd ...
JOURNALIST: That’s what we call it in Larisa, too.
JOURNALIST: Same thing?
JOURNALIST: Of course.
JOURNALIST: That’s progress. Is it not somewhat inappropriate for the Alternate Advisor on National Security and the Prime Minister’s Advisor to be talking, at this juncture in time, about co-exploitation regarding a matter that may happen, when it happens, which will happen, etc.?
N. DENDIAS: I don't believe Mr. Dokos views himself as part of the executive branch. He is a scientist expressing his view, and I think that...
JOURNALIST: He serves on a body that advises not just the Prime Minister, but the country too, isn't that so?
N. DENDIAS: Just as you say, a body that advises. An advisory body is one that is able to put forth a number of recommendations for the Prime Minister to choose from.
JOURNALIST: I assume your affinity for him does not lead you to agree with the timing of his proposal.
N. DENDIAS: Look, I am much more of a politician in the narrow sense, despite the fact that I always say that I am an amateur politician, that this is not my job, but I am far more experienced. As a result, I have an understanding of what must be said, what must be made public and when. Mr. Dokos is a scientist whose scientific expertise is valued, and it was considered that he could make a contribution as an advisor to the Prime Minister, serving on a board that advises the Prime Minister. This is a useful thing.
JOURNALIST: However, what Mr. Dokos actually said...
N. DENDIAS: Let us not take this out of context.
JOURNALIST: What he actually said, he referred to the issue of co-exploitation — and I bring this up so that our viewers know what we’re talking about — he referred to the issue of co-exploitation afterwards, if and when an agreement is reached, of this ever the case, it will take place purely on terms of trade interests. It is just that the timing was somewhat odd.
N. DENDIAS: So, I think we are in complete agreement.
JOURNALIST: ... as they say on Tinos. It was a little odd in the sense that one does not make such statements when Oruc Reis is strolling around the Mediterranean. Now, Minister, to return to the matter of The Hague, as you gave us a lovely, eloquent account of events. In practical terms, how can we reach an agreement with Turkey without involving The Hague, or how can we reach a "compromis" when, on one hand, Greece acknowledges one dispute and, on the other, Turkey raises seven issues.
N. DENDIAS: Look, it is my impression that many of the issues Turkey raises are pretextual.
JOURNALIST: So, the issues aren’t seven in number, but five.
N. DENDIAS: And Turkey knows this too. For example, this issue of delimiting maritime zones with Libya, I can honestly say — and I absolutely believe this — that Turkey is raising the issue in an effort to maximise the strength of its negotiating position when the negotiations open. It cannot believe it, this affair is so absurdum, so absurd, just looking at a map one wonders, “is this possible?”.
JOURNALIST: Is this not the strategy, as they say, of Davutoğlu for Turkey to have access to the sea and...
N. DENDIAS: Greece is not denying Turkey access to the sea, Greece does not want to lead it to suffocation. I believe we are — let me remind the viewers that our country was the premier advocate for Turkey’s accession to the European Union. I must stress this once more: Greece does not aim at Turkish isolation. We are striving for Turkish participation, but under which terms? Not the hegemonic terms of Turkey. In other words, if Turkey, if part of the Turkish deep state believes that the Central and Eastern Mediterranean would become a Turkish “lake” and Greece would be an “island” in this Turkish “lake”, they should forget about it, let us be clear. And when I hear about blue homelands of this size, I respond “nonsense”. These ideas are unreal. If Turkey aims for a sea of peace and cooperation, it will find the closest ally and best listener in Greece. But only in this framework, a European framework, a modern framework, a 21st-century framework, far removed from gunboat diplomacy.
JOURNALIST: Excuse me, but could you be slightly underestimating Turkey's strategy, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: I respect Turkey, Mrs. Tremi, I do not underestimate it at all.
JOURNALIST: No, what I mean to say is that you said, for example, the story with the memorandum signed with Libya is also taking place in order to allow Turkey to negotiate from...
N. DENDIAS: I hope that’s why it's taking place.
JOURNALIST: Because, on the other hand, as you are well aware and know much better than us, all this creates a precedent and just today, this afternoon, a spokesperson of the Turkish government announced that Turkey would soon be carrying out explorations in the eastern Mediterranean, in areas which, in its view, are delimited by the illegal Turkish-Libyan agreement.
N. DENDIAS: I would wish and recommend that Turkey refrain from such a course of action. Of course, my opinion may not count, but my honestly friendly advice to Turkey would be to steer clear of this path, which would not help the country.
JOURNALIST: Nevertheless, this tactic, which, as Olga stressed, creates a precedent, tells us that Turkey can do this, and this is not news.
N. DENDIAS: In any events, in considering these memoranda as valid, Turkey finds itself in a minority of one. No one else, even the government, excuse me, Mr. Tremi, even the Tripoli government, after the agreement was signed, asked if it could send us a committee for talks in order to see whether we should resort to The Hague in regard to these memoranda.
JOURNALIST: Minister, what we see here...
N. DENDIAS: In other words, even they are not confident in claiming that these things are valid.
JOURNALIST: However, Minister, we see that Turkey is harassing — well, there is no harassment as there is no exploration at this location; but in this area Turkey is trying to create a precedent with regard to Cyprus. Turkey sent the vessel here to us; it is threatening that the situation will repeat itself. How is it possible that Turkey can do all this? Because, as you know, there is the view that it enjoys support, namely, the support of the United States. And what the United States ultimately wants is to lead us to a co-exploitation scheme of natural resources. Do you accept this view? And if it is true, can we react to it? In other words, the United States maybe telling us, “go ahead and we’ll be on your side" but what if they say you split everything and to get rid of the problem”?
N. DENDIAS: I have no evidence that would allow for a working assumption that the United States of America encourages Turkish provocativeness, neither in the framework of the Aegean Sea nor that of the Eastern Mediterranean, nor even in the framework of the zones around the Republic of Cyprus. I have no indication of this being the case.
JOURNALIST: Minister, had the Cyprus issue been resolved in the direction of a bizonal, bicommunual Federation...
N. DENDIAS: You are referring to the Annan Plan V.
JOURNALIST: The Annan Plan V and the Crans-Montana talks in 2017. Had this been achieved, would the situation today be calmer and, therefore, had this come to pass, would a way to resolve the situation be to once again raise the issue first before the two communities?
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Kanellis, if we succeed in resolving the Cyprus issue after the “elections” in occupied Cyprus, there will be a “reboot” of efforts and it is certain that this will be beneficial for Greek-Turkish relations. It goes without saying, the Cyprus issue is far from negligible to us. Greece has not forgotten and will never forget the 1974 invasion. Therefore, anything leading to a resolution to the Cyprus issue will also have a beneficial effect for Greece. If you ask me whether it is easy for this to occur, let me state with the utmost modesty that it is not at all easy. People far brighter and more capable than us who handle the issue on the Greek side today have tried and failed. Yet, we will continue trying.
JOURNALIST: Was it you who coined a turn of phrase regarding Russia and the bear?
N. DENDIAS: I don't recall.
JOURNALIST: Someone said that when you're dancing with a bear, you're not the one who will refuse the last dance.
JOURNALIST: Oh, I think that is...
N. DENDIAS: No, that’s not one of mine.
JOURNALIST: It could be, though, it’s reminiscent of your style of humour.
JOURNALIST: What are our relations with Russia like?
JOURNALIST: That is what I wanted to ask, and Ilias grasped it. I think they were not at the best of levels under the Syriza government. Something happened, I don’t know whether or not we were right, the service will find out, but has the climate somewhat improved compared to that period?
N. DENDIAS: I think a major effort took place through my visit to Moscow and my warm discussion with Mr. Lavrov that lasted over 5 hours. I think the Vinnik affair created an issue. Let me be absolutely clear: I think the ecclesiastical issue, in the view of Russia, is having an adverse effect on Greek-Russian relations. However, the depth of history and what we have in common, our shared faith, will lead to improvement in Greek-Russian relations in the medium term, and we will work in this direction.
JOURNALIST: In relation to Turkey?
JOURNALIST: Would you say relations are at their nadir at the moment?
N. DENDIAS: No, no.
JOURNALIST: However, as regards the ecclesiastical issue, in 2010 I happened to visit Panagia Soumela Monastery and there was havoc over which Patriarchate would officiate the ceremony.
N. DENDIAS: You mean the Moscow Patriarchate...
JOURNALIST: Yes, the Moscow Patriarchate and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
N. DENDIAS: The Moscow Patriarchate’s view concerning a “third Rome” is well-known, everyone is aware of it. However, the Hellenic Republic does not involve itself in ecclesiastical affairs. We are trying to make this clear to our Russian interlocutors.
JOURNALIST: However, perhaps our Russian interlocutors do not understand this because they have a different modus operandi and, perhaps, a different culture.
N. DENDIAS: I think Russia is home to a Caesaropapism, in the Byzantine sense, that is more active than one could claim exists in Greece, let alone the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarch is not only located outside the territory of Greece, but is not even a Greek citizen. However, I would say this: If you were to examine how President Putin addressed the new Greek ambassador, Mrs. Nasika, you would see this evidence of a thaw in our relations, as I previously noted.
JOURNALIST: In relation to Russia and Turkey?
JOURNALIST: But will it take time to see these relations advance?
N. DENDIAS: I think mutual efforts are required.
JOURNALIST: Because these two thorny issues, you referred to the ecclesiastical issue, it is...
N. DENDIAS: We started from perhaps not the best of points, Mr. Dellatolas brought it up, I do not wish to elaborate.
JOURNALIST: There is also the story of “Mr. Bitcoin”, in any event. It is certain that these two issues will progress in the way we have determined. Of course, the ecclesiastical issue was not up to the Greek government, it was decided upon by the Greek Orthodox Church...
N. DENDIAS: I hope Russia will take a clear view of what you are saying.
JOURNALIST: However, these issues cannot be pushed under the carpet. So, time is needed.
N. DENDIAS: I think what is required is a deepening of relations, which will ultimately have an effect and resolve problems and, should Russia examine them clearly, it will understand that there is no responsibility whatsoever on the Greek side. And I think Russia is slowly coming around to this point of view.
JOURNALIST: Before we end this interview, I don't know if Olga has any surprises for you at the end, I would like to ask you a question, and it is important to hear your answer today, under these circumstances. We conjecture or have been informed that there is complete accord between the political leaders and the Prime Minister with regard to the red line that, if necessary, heaven forbid, the Prime Minister will draw if the country is challenged. Do you share this view and knowledge?
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Dellatolas, I have always given the same answer to this question: the red line for every Greek Prime Minister, including Kyriakos Mitsotakis and the Government under his orders, is to defend the constitutionally enshrined rights of the Greek state. I have taken an oath to defend the Constitution and the laws. The sovereign territory of Greece is clearly defined. I have no right, and I am speaking for myself, I don't want to speak for others, I have no right to hand over a Greek territory that is even once square millimetre smaller than the one handed over to our Government.
JOURNALIST: One more question. At present, what are our relations with North Macedonia, with which, as we know, your party had a sui generis relationship?
N. DENDIAS: Improving, greatly improving. We, as a country, are trying to aid the accession prospects of North Macedonia, obviously under the condition of compliance with what was agreed upon, to be...
JOURNALIST: But these two matters are intertwined. What I mean to say is that while our obligations were “frontloaded”, so to speak, North Macedonia’s obligations are also contingent on the issue of its accession to the European Union.
N. DENDIAS: I would say that North Macedonia is making an effort. It is making an effort.
JOURNALIST: I see. Let us return to the previous matter we were discussing, that is, Turkey, its aggressiveness, The Hague, etc. I imagine none of us can rule out the possibility of a heated incident, because this could eventually happen, regardless of whether or not this is a strategic choice on the part of Turkey, it could come to pass by accident in the event that tensions become militarized. Should this come to pass, whether or not by accident, would the next step be to see us drawn to a negotiation table?
N. DENDIAS: As it is my perennial hope that the first part of your question will not come to pass, there is no point in answer the second part. It is our job to...
JOURNALIST: Yes, if this would be the tail-end of this scenario.
N. DENDIAS: You know, our job is to take action to prevent a heated incident. Of course, you might ask, does this only depend on Greece? Certainly not. However, we can only strive for the best we can do, and hope this does not come to pass.
JOURNALIST: My question was whether there is a plan. If we were to assume that a plan exists, where does it aim?
N. DENDIAS: I don't know.
JOURNALIST: At engaging in a “scuffle”, or at being drawn, whether we like it or not, to a table to engage in negotiations? Do you ever think about this?
N. DENDIAS: I don't know because I would have to make assumptions about whether a plan is in place, who masterminded the plan, what their intentions are, and whether...
JOURNALIST: Surely you have analysed all these matters.
N. DENDIAS: …and I’m trying to read between the lines.
JOURNALIST: You are optimistic in your closing statements...
JOURNALIST: However, can there be a plan in two countries that live off of tourism? And if anything were to be adversely affected by a heated incident, would it not be...
N. DENDIAS: It is not just that. Let me say this, and I include Greece in all this, even though Turkey too has an exceptionally vulnerable economy: we have two countries with a vulnerable economy, a society with a portion of it suffering, Turkey underwent...
JOURNALIST: Suffered tremendous damage due to the earthquake.
N. DENDIAS: Extensive damage due to the earthquake, and we tried to help however we could. But I must say that I do not believe that tensions help Turkey. I believe that reaching an understanding under European, modern terms would absolutely benefit Turkey. And that is why I place great hopes in our relations with Turkey improving swiftly.
JOURNALIST: Yes, but for the time being...
N. DENDIAS: Because this would be in our interests.
JOURNALIST: For the time being, tensions serve as a weapon for tackling problems in the interior.
JOURNALIST: I can picture you visiting Antalya in the very near future.
N. DENDIAS: I would have no objection. I have never been there. I would not object to visiting were the Turkish leadership to ensure the conditions that would permit me to visit. I would be overjoyed.
JOURNALIST: To wrap things up, what is the roadmap moving forward? And I don't just mean your travels, because we would need two more broadcasts to fully cover those.
N. DENDIAS: No, we have a crystal-clear foreign policy plan. I think Mr. Mitsotakis has made this very clear and the orders he gave me are clear. Firstly, the Balkans. Accession prospects for the Western Balkans, subject to on complying with conditionalities. In other words, Albania with regard to the rights of the Greek minority, North Macedonia with regard to the provisions of the treaty.
JOURNALIST: But we now see that the European Union is striving to adopt a different strategy.
N. DENDIAS: We have also been of great help in this direction. There will also be a large meeting of Ministers in Thessaloniki.
JOURNALIST: Will you form an opinion over time?
N. DENDIAS: However, there is certainly a conditionality regarding both countries, and the matter of Albania requires caution.
JOURNALIST: Do you intend to discuss the issue of the veto with Macron?
N. DENDIAS: Discuss the veto in which case?
JOURNALIST: Regarding North Macedonia. Yes, a French veto for the accession of...
N. DENDIAS: Kyriakos Mitsotakis has discussed the matter with President Macron. I have discussed it with Mr. Le Drian, and we enjoy very good relations with France. I think it is must easier now to align ourselves with the French on the issues of the Balkans, as they respect our experience in the matter.
JOURNALIST: So, the Balkans are first.
N. DENDIAS: Secondly, the wider Mediterranean basin and the Arabian Sea, the Arabian Peninsula and the section of North Africa.
JOURNALIST: The EEZ with Egypt?
N. DENDIAS: Yes, I was about to mention the EEZ with Egypt, this concerns a comprehensive understanding based on international law and the Law of the Sea, which includes EEZs. In other words, the agreement concerning exclusive economic zones.
JOURNALIST: So, we will not accept partial delimitation?
N. DENDIAS: What do you mean?
JOURNALIST: Leaving Kastellorizo out of it, for example.
N. DENDIAS: Our goal is to achieve comprehensive arrangement in the wider region as a factor for peace and security. Now, will we achieve this with every country? We include Turkey in this, Mrs. Tremi. We don't want to exclude Turkey. Whether it will join these efforts or stand aloof is its own prerogative. If it wishes to stay out of it, that would be a shame. In any, we would like to include Turkey.
JOURNALIST: I would like to ask about Egypt, whether or not we are discussion the scenario of partial delimitation.
N. DENDIAS: Are you referring to the 28th meridian?
JOURNALIST: Yes.
N. DENDIAS: We are examining everything that can be in our interest. Look, if partial delimitation is the end, then the answer is no. If partial delimitation is just an intermediate step, then this is a different matter. It is a discussion. Beyond that, we are enjoying the very best of relations with the superpower. We signed the MDCA, we have deepened our relations. We enjoy bilateral relations with European countries and France, in particular, as well as relations with Russia and China. Our relations with Russia have thawed, while our trade relations with China have deepened. This is the foreign policy plan of the Mitsotakis government.
JOURNALIST: All this makes us feel like a superpower.
N. DENDIAS: No, Mr. Dellatolas.
JOURNALIST: What about Israel?
N. DENDIAS: Our relations with Israel have never been better and, I must reiterate what I said previously, it is very important that it has become a standard issue of Greek foreign policy. I have met with Prime Minister Netanyahu 4 times in just 7 months, despite not being his counterpart, and he has met 3 times with Mr. Mitsotakis.
JOURNALIST: What about after the elections in Israel?
N. DENDIAS: Do you mean whether we will continue meeting with him? That depends.
JOURNALIST: Not Netanyahu, whoever is Prime Minister.
N. DENDIAS: That depends on what Israeli society decides. We will always have close relations with Israel. Netanyahu is a Prime Minister who treated Greece well and, consequently, our personal relations with him will not be disrupted.
JOURNALIST: We had a lovely time, thank you very much.
N. DENDIAS: I wish I could say the same, but I thank you very much all the same. You must be aware of the colloquialism you grilled me”?
JOURNALIST: Thank you very much.
JOURNALIST: ...all quiet, we'll see.
N. DENDIAS: Never. Unfortunately, we live in a neighbourhood marked by tensions. I always say that I’m sorry I’m not the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Luxembourg to be able to sleep well at night.
JOURNALIST: I wouldn't say that. Think of Luxembourg, 50 or 60 years ago.
JOURNALIST: Still...
N. DENDIAS: You are right. The Germans were entering from one side, the French from the other.
JOURNALIST: The Minister of Foreign Affairs in Luxembourg had a different problem. Terminal boredom.
N. DENDIAS: And he happens to be a steadfast philhellene.
JOURNALIST: Thank you once again, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: My warm thanks.
JOURNALIST: And thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for watching us.
February 7, 2020