T. SIAFAKAS: Let’s welcome the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias. Good morning, Mr. Dendias. We’re honoured to have you with us.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, Mr. Siafakas. Surely not honoured. Pleased, perhaps. Good morning, Mr. Vitalis, and good morning to your listeners.
T. SIAFAKAS: Minister, you invited European citizens to visit our country this summer. I’d like to ask about the guarantees that go with this invitation. In other words, the safety of public health, and of tourists, and what guarantees are actually contained in this invitation and what actually resulted from the videoconferences you had with your colleagues, with Germany, Spain, Italy, Austria, as well as our participation in the quadrilateral Summit Meeting. A compound question.
A. VITALIS: Because these are key meetings you had, Minister, with your counterparts from Italy, Austria, Croatia. The German Minister of Foreign Affairs was also in the meeting. He issued the invitations and commented favourably on Greece.
N. DENDIAS: He was very flattering. I think we should always tell it how it is. At this stage, Germany is trying to help the Greek tourism market. First of all, the priority of Greece and the Mitsotakis government is clear: Protecting health. The health of Greek citizens, the health of all citizens, all people and our visitors. Starting from there, we are trying to ensure that – in the number of cases where scientists tell us it is epidemiologically advisable – the Greek tourism market can function. In other words, cases where visitors can come to Greece from other countries with similar epidemiological profiles that won’t burden our health balance. Fortunately, there are a number of such countries. Germany is one of them. The Balkans are another region. Yesterday, we had a very long talk before the summit talks between Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. We had a discussion with all of the ministers of the Balkans, trying to reach an understanding on the protocols and procedures that will enable people to come and visit our country. Our country is entering this discussion with a major advantage: ιts very successful response to the coronavirus crisis. And we are trying to use this success to bolster the Greek tourism market.
T. SIAFAKAS: Have any agreements been finalised, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: I think we are extremely close to agreeing on common terms, both in our wider region of the Balkans and with most of the countries of the European Union ...
A. VITALIS: In the Balkans, do we share a common pandemic profile? Things are more complicated with other countries.
N. DENDIAS: That’s exactly right. It is very complicated. For example, we’re not in a position to reach an agreement with the UK. And Corfu, where I come from, is very dependent on the tourism market and has a problem. We understand this completely. But this is the reality of the situation. As I said, our priorities are: Protecting public health. The health of our citizens and our visitors. If we can’t ensure that ... But I repeat: There are a number of countries with which we can reach a very good understanding, having ensured the health of our visitors and of our own citizens, our people, and I think that is where the whole effort we are making is headed. It isn't just the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that is involved in this effort, because the Ministry of Foreign Affairs plays a supporting role, because it has the channels of communication. The Tourism Minister, Mr. Theocharis, the Transport Minister, Mr. Karamanlis, and the Prime Minister himself are dealing with this intensively.
T. SIAFAKAS: So, the mass opening to tourists will take place on the bilateral level? In other words, through agreements reached with individual countries, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. We are members of the European Union and the Schengen Area. Consequently, we have specific obligations in the context of these organizations. So, if the epidemiological profiles are compatible, the countries that belong to these two entities and have relations with Greece can’t be treated worse that other countries. And we have no reason to do that. We want visitors to come. We don't want to block visitors from coming. So, we’re trying to create communication ‘bubbles’. In other words, spaces through which people coming from other countries with similar epidemiological profiles can travel freely, without certificates, without tests, without inconvenience. Because if someone is required to have 15 different things – tests, documents – to come to Greece ...
T. SIAFAKAS: It’s not a vacation any more.
N. DENDIAS: They’ll never come. And let’s not kid ourselves. Over 10% of our GDP comes directly from tourism, and another portion of our GDP comes indirectly from tourism. And let’s not forget that we’re coming out of a 10-year crisis and another one is here. What the Anglo-Saxons call a ‘black swan’. Something completely unpredictable that no one is to blame for.
T. SIAFAKAS: Do you think the proposal for an open assistance fund, for supporting the member states, should move ahead? I’m referring to the Macron-Merkel proposal. And what does our country hope to get from the €500 billion if the proposal is adopted.
N. DENDIAS: A very important step. The important step isn’t just the amount or the fund. It is who guarantees the fund. In other words, the fact that, for the first time, we will jointly guarantee this funding, rather than each country doing so separately. This proposal is a very important step for Europe. By contrast, there is the decision of Germany’s constitutional court, which, if you try to read it in a variety of ways – I tried to read it from positive angle, but anyway – raises obstacles to European integration. If you’d like, we can talk about the court’s ruling.
A. VITALIS: Certainly.
N. DENDIAS: This is a very important and specific issue. It combines older rulings of the same court. It’s called Solange, Solange I and Solange II – of previous decades. Germany’s constitutional court has played a role. But in any case, this recommendation from the Chancellor and Mr. Macron is extremely important for Europe and its future.
A. VITALIS: But there have been reactions to the proposal. I remind you, Minister, of the Austrian Chancellor and the countries that have sided with him. So, while there is an interesting proposal – with some points still needing clarification – the reaction and division are what are blocking quick and joint steps from Europe.
N. DENDIAS: The European endeavour doesn't move ahead easily or move ahead without obstacles. It is an endeavour unique in history and it is in its initial stage. It has no more than half a century under its belt. That’s not a lot for an endeavour of this size. Of course, there are voices of opposition. We have made great strides in our bilateral relations with Austria. Enormous strides. Austria was our firmest supporter recently in Evros.
T. SIAFAKAS: With the tensions in Evros.
N. DENDIAS: Austria has been with us on a number of issues recently. So, this is all a process of persuasion, dialogue, guarantees. It isn’t easy. It’s not going to happen overnight. But honestly, it is worth the trouble: The proposal from the Chancellor and President Macron is very important for Europe – not just for Greece, but for the way we see our common future. The common guarantee is the foundation that can take Europe forward. Not states on parallel paths, but civil society for a common future.
T. SIAFAKAS: And this is important. Alfonsos, shall we move on to Greek-Turkish issues?
A. VITALIS: Yes.
N. DENDIAS: I was wondering when we would get there.
T. SIAFAKAS: We started with the news. As you know, the news and journalism have been hit by the virus, because shows and the news are now about a single topic. Minister, we have this crisis, this serious economic crisis in Turkey. But meanwhile, we’ve also seen the recent provocations and shots fired in Evros and the flyovers in Evros, which are unusual. The Minister’s helicopter was harassed. Do you think this economic crisis could impact the direction and content of Greek-Turkish relations?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, let me say something that is a longstanding position of this Greek government and every Greek government in general. We don’t wish Turkey ill. We don't like it that Turkey is entering a crisis. We aren’t gloating. And I won't hide the fact that we are always prepared to help Turkey whenever we have the opportunity to do so. Beyond that, what is sad is that Turkey, in the midst of its own crisis and a global crisis, the coronavirus crisis, is focused on resolving what are largely non-existent problems instead of responding to the common problems. And I’m talking about the way it sees Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean issues. The issues of the flyovers that you mentioned, the tone it sets on various bilateral issues, which, in a framework of good will and friendly, neighbourly relations, could have been resolved without making the front page or even the back pages of the newspapers. Turkey isn't doing much to help us. But Greece is a serious European country. We have set a framework. We are moving within this framework and we want to resolve our differences in the framework of international law. We will not diverge from that. We will not militarise our disputes. This isn’t the 19th century.
T. SIAFAKAS: Is that what Turkey is trying to do?
N. DENDIAS: Perhaps a portion of Turkey’s establishment sees things – and this is clear from their rhetoric, not just with Greece; the way many Turkish officials, government officials, not necessarily military officials, phrase their thoughts and views, which is often reminiscent of a military operation. I guess, you know, if we were living in early 20th century Greece, things might be the same here. But what Turkey needs to understand – for the benefit of Turkey itself and Turkish society – is that the world has moved on from that. We aren't there now, and there are no disputes that cannot be resolved if one handles them seriously, within the framework of international law. And we are always ready to do this. Of course, we’re talking about real disputes.
A. VITALIS: Minister, at the beginning of our conversation – and naturally we all want this – you referred to the need to boost the economy, the need for tourism to come, for both sides to do things, my question is this: Is a small or large flow of tourists into Greece – or even Turkey, with the problems it has – feasible without calm waters in the Aegean? As you know, the Yilmaz-Papoulias Memorandum, which provided for suspension of military exercises during the summer months, doesn’t exist. We have flyovers everywhere. We have navigational warnings being issued for certain areas. The Turks even disputed a NAVTEX of ours for Limnos and Samothraki. In other words, they are disputing spaces where we actually live.
N. DENDIAS: I don’t think the status of the counter-NAVTEXs really offers very much to Turkey. In general, I don’t think Turkey’s approach is doing much for Turkey. Fortunately, it hasn’t disputed Paxoi, where I have a house, and Dendiatika. Fortunately, it doesn’t yet believe it has a rhetorical claim on Dendiatika. But anyway, you’re right. We are “condemned” to live together with the Turks. We’re neighbours. We are next-door neighbours and we could build a bright future together. Turkey has to understand – and I’m sorry for putting this so bluntly – that this way of approaching things doesn’t help Turkey, doesn’t help our common future, doesn’t help our society, doesn’t help our economic development. There are no disputes that cannot be resolved. But at the same time, we can’t resolve issues if we constantly create new ones, imaginary disputes that don’t exist, simply to expand the agenda. It doesn’t work that way. Turkey has to communicate with us. I’ll give you an example of how Turkey doesn’t communicate with us. It wants to build a nuclear plant at Akkuyu. Fine. Shouldn’t it talk to its neighbours about the safety parameters? There is a fault line in the wider region. The area isn’t free of earthquakes. Isn’t that a danger to Greece?
T. SIAFAKAS: And other countries as well.
N. DENDIAS: I’m not referring to all the neighbouring countries. It is a gesture of acknowledgement that we are moving towards a common future. Shouldn't Turkey talk to us about this? Has it done so? No. Turkey’s attitude is that it is above talking to anyone. That’s not how it works.
T. SIAFAKAS: Minister, you mentioned Paxoi and Corfu earlier. I would like to ask: Does the right to extend territorial waters to 12 nautical miles stand? And does Greece intend to exercise this right, and when? Syriza, the previous government, had plans to extend in the Ionian. Does this plan exist?
N. DENDIAS: Extension was considered, not just in the Aegean, and this has always been under consideration. The country has the right to extend its territorial waters to 12 miles. It isn't giving this up – it will exercise this right wherever it wants to, when and how it sees fit. It is our unilateral right. It has no reason to confer with anyone on this. We are totally indifferent to absurdities like Turkey’s casus belli. In 21st century society, there are no threats of war. First of all, they are expressly prohibited by the UN Charter.
A. VITALIS: It’s a decision of the Turkish National Assembly.
N. DENDIAS: Look, you can make any decision you like. Mr. Vitalis and Mr. Siafakas can convene and decide that I can’t go to my house in Paxoi in the summer, as we said earlier. I say this in this sense: Does your decision have any legal effect on my right to go to my house? So, beyond that, our country, when it sees fit, will exercise its right according to its interests and by decision of its constitutional bodies. But we certainly have these rights.
T. SIAFAKAS: You mentioned the militarisation of the crisis by Turkey. But there are many people who want something more from our policy on Turkey. I don’t know what that ‘something more’ might be, but there are some other people who add that the narrative of the past decades – that we want a European Turkey and that Turkey itself wants to join the EU – is gone, and that Greece needs to find another narrative for its approach to the new reality with Turkey. What’s your view on this?
N. DENDIAS: It is my hope – I can’t express an opinion; I don’t have the right to do that – that Turkey will not abandon its European perspective, in spite of the difficulties. And I must say that President Erdogan’s message a few days ago, which concerned precisely this issue, and a similar position taken by my counterpart, Mr. Cavusoglu, were in a very positive direction – towards a European future for Turkey. And the European future isn't limited to participation in a market or certain institutions. It has to do with a common outlook on values and reality. We hope Turkey moves in this direction. And I think this needs to be the country’s outlook in general. Whether Turkey wants to pursue a European perspective is up to Turkey itself. Beyond that, Greece isn’t just resting on its hopes. As an example, there was something that didn’t get much news coverage but was a huge success for Greek foreign policy. I’m referring to last week. In other words, Greece’s ability to bring together broader understandings among states, based on established views that have to do with international law. And not just states in its immediate region of the Eastern Mediterranean, but also Gulf states, like the United Arab Emirates, which carries a great deal of weight in that region – weight that is out of proportion to its geographical size, but proportionate to its enormous economic and political importance. That’s just an example. Greece is also stepping up its pace in the Balkans following the economic crisis. I think that Greek foreign policy has accomplished a great deal in this state of affairs, and this was made feasible by the political system’s leaving behind the framework of contention between political parties and, to a great extent, reaching a point where the political parties agree on national interest.
A. VITALIS: Can I ask a question? A follow-up to Mr. Siafakas’s question on the 12 miles. There is the illegal, irregular memorandum that you have denounced and that you are taking actions to void.
N. DENDIAS: Not just us. It has been denounced by almost everyone, apart from Turkey.
A. VITALIS: The whole international community. But the Libya-Turkey memorandum still exists. Based on this memorandum, Turkey is preparing to carry out surveys in June and July, in areas designated by the memorandum. There are two issues here. First, what has happened with Greece’s effort to delimit EEZs with Egypt? Where do we stand? And where do we stand with Italy? These are very serious issues.
N. DENDIAS: Greece is in talks with Italy, which is a friendly country, our partner in the European Union. We are in talks with Egypt, another friendly country with which we have made great strides in our relation in recent years. There are different approaches, even among friends, and this isn’t bad, so we hope that we will find solutions and that we will be able to resolve these specific issues.
A. VITALIS: Are we closer to reaching an agreement with Egypt?
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn’t want to impose a timeframe, because the fact that the situation doesn’t depend on just our own will makes it impossible for me to give specific times and dates. But I am not pessimistic. Beyond that, with regard to Libya, you know, we are talking about a legal fabrication that borders on the absurd. Libya, the very country that signed it – in the manner it signed, because I don’t necessarily accept that this reflects the will of Libyan society – the Libyan House of Representatives has rejected the memorandum. But in any event, the Sarraj administration, which signed this memorandum under pressure, claims that it speaks for the country, which, allow me to say, was negotiating with Greece until 2010 and had recognised that Greece had maritime zones in the same regions it now signed on with Turkey. In fact, we will be sending a note to Libya in the coming days, to the Sarraj government, in which we will state these facts. The Libyan position, the Turkish-Libyan memorandum, is actually legally null and void. Let’s be serious: everyone knows this. Even the people who signed it know it.
T. SIAFAKAS: Yes, Minister, but, de facto, is Athens always prepared for the eventuality that Alfonsos mentioned: a renewed threat to carry out seismic surveys in the region delimited by this null and void memorandum? In other words, the Turkish oil company’s receiving a permit from the Sarraj government to carry out surveys south of Crete. What will we do then?
N. DENDIAS: We are of course aware of that possibility. And even if it had slipped our mind, a Turkish Minister reminded us just the other day that the Turkish side is considering this. We would suggest to Turkey that it not base its actions on a null and void memorandum. You know, whatever Turkey does based on these arrogant, absurd and illegal fabrications will probably expose rather than help it. And through its conduct, its absurd conduct, its provocative conduct, its often-illegal conduct within the Cypriot EEZ and Cypriot territorial waters, Turkey has opened many doors for us. Because it has helped the international community see what role each side is playing and wants to play in this state of affairs.
T. SIAFAKAS: And we saw this in practice in Evros.
N. DENDIAS: I mean, excuse me: How does using the migration issue as a tool for blackmailing both Greece and the European Union benefit Turkey? What does it gain? Didn’t this expose Turkey before the whole international community? Is there a single European minister who doesn’t see exactly what role Turkey is playing? Absolutely everyone does.
A. VITALIS: What’s happening in Evros now, Minister? In the southern part, there are Turkish military forces on the border, and I’ve heard you are preparing a demarche. Is this true?
N. DENDIAS: I hope we reach an understanding. There is a matter of a dispute of the exact border, due to changes in the river's banks. I implied this earlier, but you were right not to notice. I said it in a way ... I don’t like to create tensions between the two countries, which are allies. These matters can be resolved without a single mention in a newspaper. The appropriate measurements can be made and these things can be resolved in a joint committee. We’re talking about a few dozen meters.
T. SIAFAKAS: But are there channels of communication? Because there have to be channels of communication for these issues to be resolved.
N. DENDIAS: You put it nicely. So, Turkey has to consent to the creation of secure and serious channels of communication. Because, you know, these channels may exist, but the other side also has to be willing to listen to what we have to say. Channels of communication are not channels for one side to impose its positions on the other.
T. SIAFAKAS: Obviously, but we see a certain malice on the part of Erdogan. It isn’t a personal issue, but we see a certain malice towards the Prime Minister.
N. DENDIAS: I sincerely hope that the statements attributed to President Erdogan were misattributed. I witnessed both of President Erdogan’s meetings with our Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis. I think the meetings went very well on the level of personal rapport. And in general, President Erdogan is very open-hearted, as you know, and is very cordial on the personal level.
T. SIAFAKAS: Are Kyriakos Mitsotakis and Erdogan in touch at this point? Can one of them pick up the phone and talk to the other?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, that’s a question that has to be answered by the Prime Minister, not by me.
T. SIAFAKAS: Whether you know.
N. DENDIAS: And if I know, I have to say I don’t have the right to tell you. But I think that the head of the Greek government and the President of Turkey must always have a clear and honest relationship. That doesn't mean we have to agree on everything, but there has to be a clear and honest relationship. Just as there should be between the two countries’ Ministers of Foreign Affairs.
T. SIAFAKAS: Nevertheless, is danger lurking? Alfonsos asked you this with regard to Evros. Could a single accident lead to heated incident? We saw Frontex personnel get fired upon. Is there a risk of an accident taking place there?
N. DENDIAS: The Greek Armed Forces, the Minister of Defence and the Deputy Minister and the Chief of the National Defence General Staff and our officials are experienced people, as you know. They are not hotheads. They have proven they know how to handle situations seriously and responsibly. General Floros has been to Evros... I don’t know how many times, recently. I think we can handle things so they don’t get out of control. Provided, of course, the other side observes certain limits – to be clear. It isn't up to just us.
T. SIAFAKAS: What does the ousting of Rear Admiral Cihat Yayci – the architect of the Turkey-Libya memorandum and “Blue Homeland” – mean for us?
N. DENDIAS: I always say that all this “Blue Homeland” talk is like “when pigs fly”. It’s just fabrications that are no help to Turkey – they bring to mind rediculous expansionist ideas. Turkey has disputes with Greece over maritime zones. These disputes could well be resolved in the framework of international law. Neither we nor they need these kinds of narratives. Beyond that, the position Turkey takes and how it uses its officials and its naval officers is up to Turkey. I don’t have a say. Like everyone in the Greek government, the Mitsotakis government, I am pursuing – I can’t impose it – an ideological approach that allows for unhindered and easy communication between our countries and our peoples. We don’t want to create narratives that hinder communication or the resolution of our disputes. We want to facilitate, not hinder.
T. SIAFAKAS: Is the Thessaloniki policy under way and getting results? I am referring to the policy of influence and expanding Greece’s presence in the Balkans.
N. DENDIAS: This is a longstanding policy. As I said before, Greek foreign policy – and this is proof of the maturity of the Greek political system – is fortunately on tracks followed by all governments. Following a deep crisis, the country has returned to the Balkans. Yesterday, for example, there was a meeting of all the Balkan Ministers of Foreign Affairs – not just of the EU members – which was co-hosted by the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Greece and North Macedonia. Who would have predicted this? And why did we meet? On tourism. So that we can visit each other’s countries. And you know this essentially concerns Greece a great deal, because Greece has very large tourism flows from Serbia and from North Macedonia, from Bulgaria, Romania, and even from Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzegovina. So, Greek foreign policy is pursuing a key role in the Balkans and has had major successes. The fact that Bulgaria and Romania are members of the European Union is no happenstance. Greece helped a great deal on their path towards Europe. Just as it helped a great deal towards the opening of accession negotiations with Albania and North Macedonia. But, let me be clear: This doesn't mean we have resolved all of our differences. We expect very specific things from Albania. We expect specific things from North Macedonia. But we believe that it is much easier to resolve these problems in the context of the accession process.
A. VITALIS: Thank you very much.
N. DENDIAS: Have a good day.
May 20, 2020