JOURNALIST: Now let’s welcome the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias. Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, Mr. Hatzinikolaou. Good morning to our listeners on this sunny autumn day.
JOURNALIST: End of November, 20 Degrees, sunshine. Let’s talk about the migration-refugee issue.
N. DENDIAS: This is where the sunshine stops.
JOURNALIST: Yes, the sunshine stops here and I raise this topic to ask you, Minister, why Europe is behaving hypocritically. And how can our country pursue solidarity from the European partners?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, because a lot of countries prefer to prioritise their own problems over the problems of other countries, I think it’s common ...
JOURNALIST: It’s very understandable.
N. DENDIAS: Right. Egoism. What we are trying to do, to the extent we can – and I think the Prime Minister did this very successfully in Zagreb – is to hold up a mirror to everyone and show them the reality of the situation, so this fantasy can stop. Because it's very easy to pretend you don’t understand a problem, but the reality is that this is a Pan-European problem.
And it isn't impacting just societies. It is impacting politics, culture – everything. It requires a European solution. We need to change Dublin II, go to a new process that we agree on, a single asylum procedure and an agreed tactic for protecting Europe’s borders. Not to build walls, but so we can actually help these people who want to come to Europe – so they can come with dignity and legally. And of course within the framework of how much of a burden reception societies can take, because otherwise we can't do anything. We can't let everyone in. What can we do? Even if we wanted to, we couldn’t.
JOURNALIST: How can a small country like Greece persuade Brussels and Berlin to change their stance?
N. DENDIAS: We're not alone, first of all. We can create alliances. We already have an alliance with Cyprus, with Malta. Italy has issues with how it sees us. It takes work.
JOURNALIST: And Spain, too.
N. DENDIAS: Spain just now got a government. I've been trying to go to Spain for so long, but I don’t have an interlocutor. I saw the Italian Minister twice. We came to some conclusions. Italy changed Ministers. You know, we’re dealing with a shifting environment. The Portuguese show understanding if you talk to them. Next week I will meet with the Dutch Minister in Athens, and we have similar outlooks on a number of issues, even if the Netherlands is in another geographical area of the European Union. So it takes effort, but we can gradually create an alliance with responsible Europeans, as I call them. And this alliance really can lead to a change in the European Union’s approach. Is it easy? No. Will it happen overnight? I have to be honest. No.
JOURNALIST: And this is the issue for me, Minister. Like the lack of solidarity for the European south during the years of the severe economic crisis, this issue could eat away at Europe’s foundations.
N. DENDIAS: You’re right. You are absolutely right. When we say we are moving towards European integration or federalisation or, to put it in simpler terms,
developing from a market into a family – this is not how a family acts. Just as we don’t treat each other as family on many issues, because we have to be honest
about this. Europe needs to – and I say this not because I can teach someone something, but you mentioned Spain. Spain is giving aircraft-carrier construction know-how to Turkey. Is this part of solidarity? Germany is giving submarines to Turkey. Is this part of solidarity? I’m not talking about rifles; I’m talking about weapons that can change the balance of power. If we want to survive as a discrete entity on the planet of superpowers, I think we need to gain a sense of family. It will take time, but we – with our small power, our small capabilities – need to make this effort.
JOURNALIST: Now we come to our relations with Turkey, since you mentioned it.
N. DENDIAS: Another easy issue!
JOURNALIST: Yes. Another easy issue! Where do we stand? If I asked you to map out this relationship, to give us a snapshot?
N. DENDIAS: At a distance. First of all, Turkey’s stance on the Cyprus issue, even if it isn’t a bilateral issue, poisons Greek-Turkish relations, to be honest. We are not indifferent to what is happening in Cyprus. Beyond that, there is also Turkey’s whole stance on the migration issue, which isn’t a bilateral issue. Let’s be clear on this.
When I talk about the migration issue with Cavusoglu, it isn’t in the context of the Greek-Turkish agenda. It’s another issue. But the violations in the Aegean create issues as well. But I have made it clear to them that we will pursue dialogue. We will pursue every last hope in order to find a solution. Turkey is our neighbour. It’s here to stay. We can't change neighbourhood. We’re not going to move to Luxembourg. So we have to try, seriously and with determination, to find solutions. But of course, what solutions? Solutions within our value framework and while protecting our national interests.
But I have a secret hope. I hope Turkish society and the Turkish leadership come to understand that their country’s future cannot be in the framework of Middle Eastern conduct.
That doesn’t lead anywhere. It’s not good for Turkey. Leaving ourselves aside. It’s not good for Turkey itself. What Turkey is getting from Greece in terms of an offer of services – in other words, assistance in approaching a European model and a European future – is huge and invaluable, and I hope Turkey comes to see this.
JOURNALIST: Now on to our northern borders, and I want to ask you how our relations with our northern neighbours have been affected by Macron’s veto and the freezing of the accession process for the two countries.
N. DENDIAS: Let’s be honest with ourselves. This has created a huge domestic image and stability problem for both governments. The government of North Macedonia and the government of Albania. More so for the government of North
Macedonia. What is our stance? Our stance, first of all, is that enlargement is in the interest of Europe and in the interest of Greece. Not enlargement by just granting membership – enlargement if these countries adopt the European acquis. If they do this, it will resolve our bilateral problems. This process automatically resolves our bilateral problems. So we support it for two reasons. First, because it is good for Europe, and we are Europeans. And second, because it is good for Greece and for these two countries. I can't tell you whether we’ll succeed. I’m not sure we can change France’s mind about its policy. But we will certainly try. The Prime Minister is trying very hard in this direction. I saw Dimitrov again the day before yesterday. I’ll be going to Skopje again next Tuesday. I’ll see the Dutch Minister next week in Athens, and Holland was one of the three countries that said no. I’m planning to go to Copenhagen. We’ll see the French again. I saw Le Drian the day before yesterday in Brussels, at the NATO meeting. In the context of our capabilities, we are doing more than we can.
JOURNALIST: Minister, could this be a historic opportunity to remedy – put the word inside multiple quotation marks – some of the weaknesses and sore points of the Prespa Agreement?
N. DENDIAS: Of course. But this will happen if they 're given a date. Then we will be able to do that. And then the government in Skopje, first of all, will have the stature to show gains in domestic public opinion. And we will gain the potential, in the context of the chapters that open, to explain to them – because I don’t want to pressure anyone – why a few things need to be corrected.
JOURNALIST: In closing our brief conversation, I want to ask how you see Europe? How concerned are you that a bloc of extreme-Right forces has developed within the European Union: Salvini, Orban, Le Pen in France? And whether you think Europe is heading towards complete integration or towards disintegration. This is the million-euro question.
N. DENDIAS: First of all, we in New Democracy are committed Europeans. This was one of the key principles of our founder, Konstantinos Karamanlis. Is Europe’s future certain? Not at all. We’re at a crossroads, and you’re right to say it is the million-euro question. But one thing is certain: that if we want to have a future, a serious future with the ability to influence global developments, it has to be a shared future. Otherwise, among the superpowers, Europe will cease to have any power or any potential to influence developments. In other words, if Great Britain really believe that in 100 years, with its population and GDP, it will stand alone against China or the U.S., it is making a huge mistake. A historic mistake. We need to strive for European integration. Whether we succeed will depend on our societies. You’re right. Populism, the extreme Right – fuelled by the poor handling of the migration issue – are huge challenges. But we handled it in Greece. Greek society, with a GDP that is 70% of the European average, ejected Golden Dawn from Parliament and sent them home. We set examples. We, the small country of Greece.
JOURNALIST: My warm thanks to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you.
JOURNALIST: Good day, Mr. Dendias.
N. DENDIAS: Good day, Mr. Hatzinikolaou.
November 22, 2019