M. ANASTASOPOULOU: We now have the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias, with us. Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning.
D. OIKONOMOU: A few hours after your visit to Egypt. We have a lot of serious developments, and I’d like to start with the now official disputing of the EEZs of Kastelorizo and our other islands, as expressed by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of our neighbouring country Turkey. This is the first time it’s been done officially. What does this mean for us, in practice?
N. DENDIAS: I would put the word ‘official’ in inverted commas. Turkey is trying to garner acceptance for an outlook that the islands don’t have a continental shelf. And it has done this historically. And not just for Kastelorizo, but for the very large islands of the Aegean. But this is a Turkish outlook. In our opinion, it is completely unfounded. There are dozens of decisions from international courts that support the exact opposite of what Turkey is saying. Turkey also takes cover behind the fact that it is not a signatory to the Convention on the Law of the Sea, and in the context, if I may, of its negotiating tactic, it is making groundless statements.
D. OIKONOMOU: But it is doing so in combination with other moves. In other words, with the memorandum it has signed with Libya and its provocative conduct in the region. This is a combination of moves.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll refer briefly to the alleged memorandum. First of all, it appears there are two memoranda. One on maritime issues – I say it like this because we don’t know the exact content, so we can’t be more precise.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: And a military memorandum?
N. DENDIAS: And one that concerns defence cooperation. The second is also very interesting, because it is very likely a violation on the part of Turkey of the embargo the UN Security Council has placed on transport of weapons to Libya. But apart from that, there is also something that may sound like a technicality, but is very substantial. Mr. Al Sarraj, who is the Chairman of the Presidential Council, of the Council of Ministers of Libya – according to an agreement in Morocco that was endorsed by the Security Council – does not have the authority to sign anything.
D. OIKONOMOU: But he has been recognized internationally as the leader.
N. DENDIAS: The Presidential Council has been recognized internationally, including by Greece. This body decides unanimously. There is no ...
D. OIKONOMOU: And this unanimous agreement doesn’t exist at this time.
N. DENDIAS: It doesn’t appear to. Moreover, it is absolutely certain that this agreement will not be accepted in any way by the parliament of Libya, which is in Tobruk.
D. OIKONOMOU: Which is controlled by the army.
N. DENDIAS: Which has a president, who is also recognised by the United Nations.
D. OIKONOMOU: We still don’t know the content.
N. DENDIAS: No, we simply don’t know. It is being kept from us.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Did you know, Minister, that this agreement was being prepared between Turkey and Libya?
N. DENDIAS: We knew that from the start. The previous government knew it as well. At the first EU Foreign Affairs Council I attended, on 15 July, I informed the French Minister and the Italian ...
D. OIKONOMOU: In July.
N. DENDIAS: Since July. In fact, when I showed Mr. Le Drian, on a map, what was probably being planned, he said, “exotique”.
D. OIKONOMOU: In other words, he couldn’t believe it.
N. DENDIAS: But now ...
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Have you raised the issue with the Libyan Minister of Foreign Affairs?
N. DENDIAS: Of course.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: When?
N. DENDIAS: I raised it at the United Nations in September, during our bilateral meeting.
D. OIKONOMOU: Your meeting with your counterpart.
N. DENDIAS: With my Libyan counterpart.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: What did he say?
N. DENDIAS: He said that such discussions were really taking place, but he also recognised that it was problematic and couldn’t be signed. And that's why the Greek government reacted as it did to the diplomatic representation of Libya.
D. OIKONOMOU: Will you expel the Ambassador if he doesn’t provide explanations?
N. DENDIAS: If he doesn't bring us the agreement, on Friday he will be declared persona non grata and he’ll leave.
D. OIKONOMOU: Why didn’t you do the same with the Turkish ambassador?
N. DENDIAS: Turkey didn’t deceive us.
D. OIKONOMOU: Did Turkey tell you what the memorandum contains? The Turkish ambassador?
N. DENDIAS: Turkey didn’t tell us it wouldn’t sign such a memorandum ...
D. OIKONOMOU: I’m talking about the content. You summoned the Turkish ambassador. Didn’t you summon him?
N. DENDIAS: I summoned the Turkish ambassador and protested strongly and asked for an explanation. But Turkey, in my bilateral meetings with Mr. Cavusoglu, did not tell me it wouldn’t sign a memorandum like this, and then sign it. Let’s be frank.
D. OIKONOMOU: While the Libyan Minister did say that.
N. DENDIAS: Certainly.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: In September.
N. DENDIAS: With Turkey we have a chessboard of diplomatic moves. I have to be perfectly frank and honest. Greece feels strong and confident. We talk to the Turks. We haven't stopped talking to the Turks. Of course, within the framework of national interest and underscoring to the other side what is acceptable and unacceptable.
D. OIKONOMOU: We’ll get to that, but first tell us about the talks you had in Egypt with your counterpart and the acceleration of the delimitation of the EEZ. Why did that happen now? Is this our response to what Turkey is doing?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, Greece doesn’t devise its diplomatic tactics and national interest based exactly on what Turkey is doing. We are not a mirror of Turkey’s moves. The talks with Egypt on delimitation of the EEZ between our two countries started a long time ago. There have been 10 rounds, I think. In the context of our joint consideration of the latest development, we agreed to step up these procedures. After all, Egypt is a friendly country, you know. We talked about ...
D. OIKONOMOU: But what does this mean?
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Are we the ones expediting things up here, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: I think the Egyptians, too, want very much to settle this dispute, because the Egyptians, especially in their sector, the ‘Zohr’ deposit, a large natural gas deposit, has already been found, and they rightly believe that, next to that, which is their sector – logically, it will be; we can't extend ourselves to the shores of Africa – another deposit will be found. So the Egyptians are in a hurry too.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Will it happen soon?
N. DENDIAS: It will happen soon. Yes. We will re-appoint the technical teams, which will start up again, and in fact my Egyptian colleague and I agreed, because these are negotiations, let’s not kid ourselves ...
D. OIKONOMOU: Will this happen elsewhere as well, Minister? Because you said before the Law of the Sea, the Montego Bay Treaty of 1982. Since then, Greece has not exercised its rights. Why?
N. DENDIAS: It wasn't 1982. What followed was a long series of ratifications. Think of it as 1996-1997.
D. OIKONOMOU: Will we declare an EEZ in other areas?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, the perception that Greece has not provided a geographical horizon in terms of what it considers to be its rights is inaccurate. There was a law in 2011, passed by the Hellenic Parliament, which has also been sent to the United Nations.
D. OIKONOMOU: So, will Greece be moving ahead with other steps?
N. DENDIAS: In any case, with its neighbouring countries, Greece is pursuing – through an agreement, because this is what the agreement provides for – the delimitation of Exclusive Economic Zones so that we can clear all of this up.
D. OIKONOMOU: Are you talking about the Aegean and the Ionian? What areas are you talking about now? Because we have Albania, we have Italy, we have the sides over there.
N. DENDIAS: As you know, we reached an agreement with Albania, which was cancelled by the Albanian constitutional court. We are in good shape with Italy. There is an agreed text. So, here we have to do with problematic locations that are south and east. I think with Egypt, a friendly country, we’ll work it out. We have to find a way to resolve things with Turkey. And to do this, there has to be dialogue.
D. OIKONOMOU: Bridges with Turkey aren't cut off. That’s what I see: That Greece is trying to communicate with Turkey and is pursuing dialogue.
N. DENDIAS: We are always open to dialogue and we are always ready to talk. But in what frame of reference, Mr. Oikonomou? We have to be clear on this. In the framework of International Law, but not International Law as Turkey interprets it in a given case. Because Turkey has an innovative school of International Law. Of course we can talk to Turkey, in the context of International Law. And Turkey isn’t helping itself or its society or its economic prospects when it appears as a country that violates international ...
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: But you know what’s happening, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: Go ahead.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: The constant invoking of International Law is to be expected, at least from us, but in the case of Cyprus as well, a few months ago we were also talking about International Law. But we saw the Turks go from survey ships and exploration to drilling. Are you afraid we might see something like this south of Crete?
N. DENDIAS: Let me be clear. First of all, I will not speak for the Republic of Cyprus. The Republic of Cyprus, with which we have very close ties, is an independent country. There is no doubt about this. It determines its own policy. If you want my opinion, I don’t think this whole story – Turkey’s conduct towards the Republic of Cyprus – turned out very well for Turkey. The European Council has already voted and decided to impose sanctions, and sanctions will start being imposed on Turkey.
D. OIKONOMOU: By the European Union.
N. DENDIAS: Right.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: But it creates accomplished facts in the region.
N. DENDIAS: I don’t think Turkey has achieved anything, you know. I don't think so. Apart from spending a lot of money ...
D. OIKONOMOU: It managed to kick Total out of the region, which was a licensed block, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: The question isn't whether things were delayed for a month or two, or a year or two. It is whether you managed to add anything to your national rights. Turkey didn’t manage to do that.
D. OIKONOMOU: So you’re saying that what Turkey is trying to achieve – you know this better than we do, in any case – is to co-manage the energy resources in the region. That’s what it wants. To sit at the same table.
N. DENDIAS: I can’t say what Turkey wants. I’ve told them straight out that no one will deny Turkey’s legal rights. But in what framework does all of this have to be discussed? I’ll say it again: International Law. What is International Law? The agreement on what we are discussing, and which Turkey has not ratified. Does it want to accept that this agreement applies as customary law, even if it hasn't ratified it? We can talk on that basis too. But we need to talk. Not have Turkey impose anything or drag us into anything.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Are we at the most difficult point in Greek-Turkish relations in recent years right now, Minister? Don’t answer now. Right after the commercials, please.
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M. ANASTASOPOULOU: We already have a question we asked before the commercials, and we’ll restate it for the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dendias. Are you worried about the possibility or do you consider it likely, Minister, that in the coming time we’ll see a Turkish seismic survey ship south of Crete or near Kastelorizo, as some people predict? And what will Greece do in this case?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, because you said seismic survey ship and you were very careful, seismic surveys come under an article of exception, if I remember correctly. In other words, surveys may ..
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: In other words, they’re legal?
N. DENDIAS: That will be judged in the given case, but I say again, special seismic surveys, if my memory serves – I’m not an expert in international law – can be an exception. The question is, if Turkey violates our sovereignty. That’s not an issue.
D. OIKONOMOU: So we won’t allow it.
N. DENDIAS: There is no such issue.
D. OIKONOMOU: So we won’t allow it.
N. DENDIAS: We can't. I don’t make heavy statements. It’s not in my character. I don’t rattle swords. Each Minister – the government and the Prime Minister – takes an oath on the Constitution and the laws. We are obliged to defend Greek territory as it was delivered to us. We don’t have the right to cede sovereignty, our sovereign rights.
D. OIKONOMOU: We ask this, Minister, because it is a possible scenario. It’s how Turkey operated in Cyprus. That’s a different case, of course, but that’s how it operated. It got a so-called permit from occupied Cyprus. Here it can claim permission from the alleged agreement with Libya and say, “I’m going south, southeast of Crete.”
N. DENDIAS: If Turkey violates Greece’s sovereignty, what will happen will happen. I don't want to use such expressions.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: So Greece will react.
N. DENDIAS: There is no chance it won’t react.
D. OIKONOMOU: Does Greece have strong armed forces, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: I think each of us sees that every day. If you look at surveys, the Armed Forces are highly trusted.
D. OIKONOMOU: By citizens you say, yes.
N. DENDIAS: Turkey is extremely careful and will be extremely careful.
D. OIKONOMOU: So you don’t believe it will go as far ...
N. DENDIAS: I can’t predict what Turkey will do. Especially since 2016, President Erdogan may have another outlook on things. If you asked me, for example, if I could have predicted his statements against President Macron, I would answer that “of course I couldn't have.”
D. OIKONOMOU: You’re referring to the “brain dead” statement.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, that’s what I’m talking about. I’m not in a position to predict Turkey's moves. I state clearly to the Turkish Minister, who is a friend of mine, what Greece’s limits are. And these are not limits we have set – our government, Mitsotakis. They are limits set by the Constitution. That’s the country.
D. OIKONOMOU: Yes, but Turkey is using every weapon, Minister, even the migration issue, as you saw, and Turkey is using it as a weapon. What is Greece doing about that?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, Greece is creating a system for handling migration flows. We have said clearly that the country can’t ...
D. OIKONOMOU: I assume you don’t agree with Mr. Samaras, who talked about an “illegal migration issue” and illegal colonization.
N. DENDIAS: I was in Egypt yesterday. I wasn't at the conference, so I don’t know.
D. OIKONOMOU: So you didn't hear it.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: He said it.
N. DENDIAS: I saw something, but honestly, again I don’t know. I’ll look at it. But I will say this: First of all, Greece is creating a system for handling migration flows. What Turkey is doing really is outside the bounds of Law – capitalising on human suffering and turning flows of migrants and refugees toward Greece in order to put Greece and the European Union, I repeat, in a difficult position.
D. OIKONOMOU: But we don’t see the European Union reacting, Minister. We see the Prime Minister has made it an international issue, pressuring Europe, which has nevertheless remained apathetic. You’re going to the Summit the day after tomorrow. What will you say?
N. DENDIAS: It’s a NATO Summit. The topic will be discussed.
D. OIKONOMOU: It will be a main topic.
N. DENDIAS: Some partners don’t accept burden-sharing. I won’t refer to specific countries, but these same partners are in line to get money from the Cohesion Fund. This is unacceptable, just so we understand each other.
D. OIKONOMOU: So, what sanctions are we talking about against Turkey?
N. DENDIAS: Just a minute. On the migration issue, the country has said clearly that Turkey deserves support. And we have helped Turkey, and at a high internal cost, because at times when Turkey’s tactics on other fronts were unacceptable, Greece stuck to its initial position. We are clear on this: Turkey has shouldered a burden. We should help. But not with what it’s doing now.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: Yesterday, we heard the Prime Minister say that NATO needs to stop maintaining its policy of equal distance. Do you, too, believe – because this view has been expressed and discussed a lot – that Greece will be on its own in a crisis?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll reverse that on you: Greece needs to be able to deal with any crisis on its own. Beyond that, it would be good to have its European and other allies at its side.
D. OIKONOMOU: Then why are we in alliances, Minister? We are among the oldest members of NATO. We are a founding member of the European Union. Why are we there?
N. DENDIAS: Neither our participation in NATO nor our membership in the European Union has damaged us. But I say again, our obligation is clear: to be able to handle the crisis on our own. I’m not saying I want us to be alone or that I hope we are alone, and I’m not saying I predict we will be alone. We are doing what we can, precisely so we won’t be alone. And our not being alone is a deterrent. To be clear.
D. OIKONOMOU: Do you think NATO will condemn Turkey the day after tomorrow? The Prime Minister will go and he’ll raise the issue.
N. DENDIAS: I can’t predict, but if you want my general opinion, NATO has difficulty taking sides among its members. This is exactly why the Prime Minister took the stance he took. And he was right to take it. We have to insist on this. Even if NATO doesn’t accept it.
D. OIKONOMOU: In the European Union, what should we expect?
N. DENDIAS: The European Union has very clear positions. Let’s not kid ourselves.
D. OIKONOMOU: Will it take measures?
N. DENDIAS: It has accepted measures.
D. OIKONOMOU: No, Minister, it hasn’t taken any stance. Because Germany says one thing, France says another. The large countries have conflicting interests.
N. DENDIAS: The European Union, the European Council, have taken a very clear stance: The imposition of sanctions on Turkey. And sanctions will be announced in the coming days.
D. OIKONOMOU: What kind of sanctions? Economic?
N. DENDIAS: Against persons and companies that help Turkey to carry out illegal actions. The European Union has almost never done this.
D. OIKONOMOU: Do you think Turkey will care about that?
N. DENDIAS: If Turkey has an Achilles tendon, it is its economy. I don’t want the Turkish economy to collapse. I want a rich and prosperous neighbour, just to be clear. But I’m saying that Turkey, on the path its following, is creating problems for itself, for its economy and society.
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: One last question, Minister. In 2018, before he left the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Kotzias announced the extension of territorial waters in the Ionian. Is that part of the Ministry’s planning right now?
N. DENDIAS: It is in the files at the Ministry, the planning that would allow – if the Ministry approved it – for moving ahead with something like that.
D. OIKONOMOU: It’s in the files and the request is sleeping. Will you brief your colleagues in the other parties?
M. ANASTASOPOULOU: We also have Mr. Katrougalos with us.
N. DENDIAS: I spoke with Mr. Katrougalos early this morning and I will speak with the representatives of all the parties. It is the position of the Prime Minister, Mr. Mitsotakis, that we brief the parties on foreign policy issues.
D. OIKONOMOU: And the leaders, by the Prime Minister?
N. DENDIAS: If they deem it necessary, I am at their disposal. And I assume, if necessary, the Prime Minister ...
D. OIKONOMOU: No, I mean the Council of Party Leaders.
N. DENDIAS: I don't think we’re in a crisis.
D. OIKONOMOU: We thank you very much.
December 2, 2019