M. ZACHAREA: Now I would like to welcome the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias. Good evening, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good evening, Ms. Zacharea. Good evening to your viewers.
M. ZACHAREA: I’ll start with the Council meeting you had yesterday with your European colleagues. You asked for sanctions on Turkey in response to the latter’s provocations in the Eastern Mediterranean. We’d like you to be a little more specific. What kind of sanctions might these be? And did most of the Europeans seem to be with us on this?
N. DENDIAS: I asked for the Council to give a mandate to the High Representative, Mr. Borrell, to draw up a recommendation, a number of economic sanctions that the Council will adopt if Turkey proceeds to actions violating Greece’s sovereignty and sovereign rights.
The Council agreed to this Greek proposal and gave a relevant mandate to Mr. Borrell, who announced this, right after the Council meeting.
We will be discussing this again at our meeting in August. Not in September, at the regular Council meeting, as was originally proposed, but in August, so that we can come to a conclusion as soon as possible – a plan for European reactions in the event of Turkish violations of international legality.
I also did two other things. First of all, I warned my colleagues – to soften the blow of possibly interrupting their holidays – that if a problem arises in the intervening time, I will request an emergency meeting of the Council during the summer.
And second, I made it very clear that Greece has capable Armed Forces. Greece’s Armed Forces have a constitutional duty to defend Greek territory, so in the event of an incident, I will request the application of article 42 of the Treaty on European Union.
M. ZACHAREA: My next question would be for you to explain the provisions of this article to our viewers.
N. DENDIAS: It provides for mutual assistance among the member states of the European Union in the event the territory of a member state is attacked. It is the European equivalent of article 5 of the NATO Treaty. An article that, through its existence, is actual proof of European solidarity.
To be absolutely clear with our friends, our family, the European Union, and with anyone else – Turkey, in this case – I warned that Greece will request measures based on article 42 if it is attacked by anyone. Of course, in this case we are talking about Turkish violations of international legality.
M. ZACHAREA: Having said all this, as you are describing it to us now, are you concerned that Turkey, beyond ...
N. DENDIAS: I said a lot more, I must say.
M. ZACHAREA: Beyond its verbal aggressiveness, will it proceed to military aggression?
N. DENDIAS: I hope not. First of all, Turkey’s illegal actions come in a variety of forms. Surveys on another country’s continental shelf – and in the case of the Republic of Cyprus, within the territorial waters of the Republic of Cyprus – are a form of aggression. It is gunboat diplomacy. Now, if, in this case, the gunboats are painted red, it doesn’t change the fact of the matter.
But beyond that, Greece must react if its national space is violated. I’m not saying this as a threat or as fearmongering. This is the constitutional duty of this government and every other Greek government.
M. ZACHAREA: To be clear: If they drill south of Crete, as they have been telling us they will for three months now, does that fall into the category of the actions you’re describing?
N. DENDIAS: Ms. Zacharea, it is obvious that the Turkey-Libya memorandum is null and void, and what Turkey is showing as fields where the Turkish petroleum company is asking for licences to carry out surveys and drilling of the seabed is actually part of the Greek continental shelf.
This is crystal clear. You don’t even have to know the Law of the Sea. You just have to look at a map: Six miles from Crete, six miles from Karpathos, six miles from Rhodes. As I told the Council, you can swim that far. You don’t even need a boat. Consequently, if Turkey thinks that it can do this and that Greece will allow it, it’s making a mistake.
The Council of Foreign Ministers, our European family, must be prepared for this eventuality. This is why – so we don’t have to rush at the last minute – we requested a list of specific “crippling sanctions”. That was the phrase I used. In other words, sanctions that will create an enormous problem for the Turkish economy. This list needs to exist so that we’re ready, so that Turkey knows what it’s getting into, and so that we leave no question as to our intentions. As Europeans.
Because, you know, it isn't just Greek space. Greek space happens to be European space as well, and the European Union must defend its own space.
M. ZACHAREA: Can you give us a couple of examples of sanctions that might be imposed?
N. DENDIAS: Of course. That’s easy. A diplomatic note on tourism, issues concerning bank transactions, issues concerning guarantees in case of imports or exports.
Ms. Zacharea, the European Union is Turkey’s biggest trade partner. If it wants to, the European Union can create huge problems for the Turkish economy. I don’t want that to happen, and that’s not what we’re after, but we have to be clear.
The European Union is a global superpower. It only needs to decide to exercise its enormous capabilities. And I don’t think there will be a state that won’t want the Union to exercise its capabilities to defend a member state that is under attack from another country.
M. ZACHAREA: If it decides to. You’re right about that, because we’ve heard in previous months that we might be on our own in the event we are attacked. But I want to look at something else. A short while ago, Mr Cavusoglu stated that, while all of this is happening, he has initiated a dialogue between Greece and Turkey. I assume he was referring to the meeting that took place yesterday, with Ms. Sourani, the head of the Prime Minister’s diplomatic cabinet, and her Turkish counterpart, Mr. Kalin.
What’s happening here? Is a behind-the-scenes dialogue taking place at the same time?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, you should be addressing this question to the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, and not to the Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Obviously, I think there was a relevant statement from diplomatic sources or a statement from the prime minister’s office on this. Of course, the German Presidency can request any clarifications from any member state.
And of course, there are meetings between officials, and this is a good thing. But that’s as far as it goes. If Turkey wants to describe this as a dialogue to avert possible sanctions, I think it has to try a little harder.
M. ZACHAREA: Now we come to the topic of Hagia Sophia. Our partners’ reaction was a little tepid. They all expressed their sadness, but no one is actually doing anything that would give Mr. Erdogan pause. And at the same time, we have Turkish officials saying that Greece has no right to say anything on this matter, because it is a country that flagrantly violates religious freedoms on its own territory. Would you like to comment on that?
N. DENDIAS: Gladly. First of all, at yesterday’s meeting, I think the Council took a very clear stance, and I am pleased with this stance.
It condemned the decision and called for Turkey to reverse the decision. This is what Mr. Borrell said in part of his statement. That is what the Council of Foreign Ministers could do.
Don’t forget that Hagia Sophia is a UNESCO world heritage site, and UNESCO has to take the relevant initiative.
But the Council, on behalf of the European Union and following a demand from us – because that wasn’t the initial wording of the statement – condemned the move and called for the decision to be reversed.
Now, beyond that, what Turkey is saying is a little comical. Let me give you a simple example: The population of Thrace, in Greece, is about 150,000 – maybe even less. There are about 260 mosques. I think that’s the highest number of mosques per capita on the planet.
Greece is a member state of the European Union, and our respect for human rights is self-evident. And allow me to say that the last country from which we would expect lessons in respecting human rights is our neighbour Turkey.
I think that, once Turkey has improved its domestic record on respecting human rights, individual rights, freedom of the press – when it has done that, then it can talk to us about these matters.
M. ZACHAREA: Will the mosque in Votanikos be moving ahead as scheduled?
N. DENDIAS: I think that’s the decision of the Prime Minister, Mr. Mitsotakis, but I want to be clear with you. President Erdogan raised this issue with the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister said, “of course it will happen, but not because you’re asking me for it. It will happen because Muslims need somewhere to pray in Athens.” Period.
This is a matter of domestic Greek law and order, a decision of the Greek state, and the Prime Minister stated that he will carry it through because it is a decision of the Greek state, and not because Turkey is asking us to do so.
M. ZACHAREA: Minister, thank you very much for talking to us this evening.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you very much.
July 14, 2020