JOURNALIST: It’s been a challenging day and weekend for Hellenism. While we are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the restoration of democracy the day after tomorrow, there was also another anniversary - a somber day of memory and honor in Cyprus. And my question is the following: In the 50 years since the invasion, numerous efforts to reunify the island have all failed. What has led you to believe that your government, along with the Christodoulides government, could achieve this goal?
G. GERAPETRITIS: The Cyprus issue, Mr. Papachlimintzos, is a top priority for Greek foreign policy. It has always been and will remain so. A year ago, we were in a phase of relative stagnation and inertia, during which the Cyprus issue was not being discussed in international fora. It had entered a state of relative stagnation. Since then, we have seen a series of events that have brought the Cyprus issue back to the forefront of international attention, and the international stage. The Cyprus issue is currently a priority at the United Nations, with the UN Secretary-General demonstrating personal attention and appointing a Personal Envoy, who has recently submitted her report.
On the other hand, the European Council Conclusions of June 2023 included an explicit provision stating that the European Union will monitor the Cyprus issue at all phases of its development. Therefore, the Cyprus issue has become a major European Union policy. For this reason, and because there has been a highly systematic effort for a year now, I believe that there will be movement on the Cyprus issue. The first step could be no other than dialogue, that is, the two leaders sitting down to discuss, always within the framework set out by the United Nations resolutions.
JOURNALIST: However, Nikos Christodoulides and Kyriakos Mitsotakis believe in it and proclaim it. Tayyip Erdogan, on the other hand, not only does not believe in it, but he also seems to be saying that that it is all over. His statements were very harsh, both on Saturday and yesterday. However, we have become accustomed to it over the past two years, as he has put the so-called two-state solution on the table and refuses to withdraw it.
G. GERAPETRITIS: The reality is that over time the Turkish side has shifted towards a more extreme line, one of sovereign equality, which would practically mean the division of the island. It is crucial that a discussion takes place at this moment. We all understand that setting something as a precondition, which is outside the framework of the United Nations, is not acceptable. We have the feeling and the cautious optimism that the next steps will bring more movement on the issue. I would like to emphasize, Mr. Papachlimintzos, that the Cyprus issue is currently a priority for the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Türkiye has developed these firm positions. However, the reality is that peace and prosperity are impossible without discussion and consultation. Therefore, I believe that at the end of the day the parties should sit down and discuss, and that a viable, acceptable, and mutually beneficial solution will emerge.
JOURNALIST: The Greek Prime Minister had a meeting with the UN Secretary General 10 days ago in New York. So, what is the following step? Will Mr. Mitsotakis meet with Ms. Holguin, with Mr. Erdogan, or take some other action?
G. GERAPETRITIS: The first step should be for the two leaders, the President of the Republic of Cyprus and the Turkish Cypriot leader, to meet and discuss directly, obviously under the auspices of the United Nations and with the personal attention of the Personal Envoy. Then, if required, Greece is evidently ready to offer its good offices. In any event, I would like to confess that over the last year, both the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and I personally have made enormous efforts to bring the Cyprus issue back to the forefront of international attention. And this is a matter of particular significance. We are of the opinion that inertia and stagnation do not result in movement. Conversely, if we are in a state of continuous movement, the solution that we are all striving for, which is the reunification of the island, can be achieved.
What is the difference? You asked why we believe that, despite significant past efforts to reunify the island in the past decades, in the last 50 years, movement at this juncture could lead to more tangible results. The response is twofold: first, the international community has prioritized this issue, and second, there has been a relative improvement in Greek-Turkish relations. We can discuss without necessarily agreeing. We have accepted the fact that there are differences of substance on fundamental issues. On the other hand, we can also address challenging topics. And that is why I believe that a window of opportunity has opened up so that we can discuss. And this discussion cannot be other than one that is based on International Law.
JOURNALIST: There is, however, something new in these discussions, something that Tayyip Erdogan mentioned he raised with the Greek Prime Minister in their last meeting. Upon returning from the occupied territories to Ankara, Tayyip Erdogan informed Turkish journalists that he told the Greek Prime Minister to put Nikos Dendias in his place - I would appreciate your comment on that. Additionally, Erdogan mentioned that he communicated to the Greek Prime Minister his expectation that there would not be a similar comment made. If the Greek Prime Minister's response was “there won’t be”, Erdogan interpreted this to mean that Mr. Mitsotakis would not issue a corresponding statement akin to that made by the Minister of National Defense.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Mr. Papachlimintzos, the situation is very clear. The Greek positions have been formulated for decades. They are firm and remain unchanged. We do not shape our foreign policy, particularly our national positions, based on circumstances. That is why we always point out and highlight Türkiye's historical responsibility for the invasion and illegal occupation, and the Turkish troops that are stationed there. On the other hand, we always seek dialogue. A dialogue that should always include deliberative elements and be based on International Law. Therefore, our position is unanimous, as expressed by the Prime Minister and the entire Cabinet and Ministers.
On the other hand, it is clear that in the discussion between the two leaders, the Greek Prime Minister and the Turkish President, topics related to the major foreign policy issues, such as the Cyprus issue, can certainly be addressed. But I would like to emphasize that there has never been any concession on the part of the Greek side. Mr. Papachlimintzos, our positions are not only Greek; they are also European. Additionally, they are positions that are consistent with International Law. Consequently, we are of the opinion that we are currently in a position of being able to defend our rights, not because they reflect our personal sentiments or our firm position, but because they are the very essence of International Law. We will continue to do so.
We understand that there is a different approach on the part of Türkiye. I would like to say that what has shaped and has largely been consolidated over time does indeed create a very complex framework for discussion. The Prime Minister's and the Greek government's positions are very clear. We have International Law on our side at this moment. We have every intention and I believe the President of the Republic of Cyprus has also pointed out that the improvement of Greek-Turkish relations can only be beneficial for the Cyprus issue. On the other hand, we understand that there would never be any concessions on the fundamentals.
JOURNALIST: Let us, however, return to President Erdogan's statements to journalists. When such statements are made by the President of Türkiye about the Greek Minister of National Defense, shouldn't there be a more stern and severe response from the Greek government towards Ankara regarding these statements?
G. GERAPETRITIS: With all due respect, allow me to say that there was an appropriate response. Mr. Papachlimintzos, I do not understand this notion of a severe response, nor can we engage in a competition over who can be harsher. The Greek government expresses itself with facts and maintains firm positions based on International Law. Empty rhetoric is pointless.
Let me also add something else. I believe that currently, Greek foreign policy can be exercised from a position of strength. It is important to be able to sit down and discuss, to be at the dialogue table. On the other hand, to be able to discuss and have power, certain requirements must be met.
It is not simply that Greece is currently in an extremely strong diplomatic position, having acquired significant diplomatic capital both bilaterally and multilaterally. Greece also has a very strong economy and a very strong defense. We have developed our policies in a way that allows our foreign policy to be exercised from a position of strength.
Let me tell you this, because I often hear that Greece exercises a policy of peace. The discussion between hard and soft policy, between those who are conciliatory and those who are patriots is as pointless as it gets. We have paid dearly for this in the past. What we must do, Mr. Papachlimintzos, is to exercise a foreign policy of strength. We must be heard by the great powers, by major international organizations, to be represented, to be a non-permanent member of the Security Council, where all international policy is conducted, and to have key positions everywhere, thus enabling us to have a strong position when we converse.
Let me also say this as I have studied both the history of the Cyprus issue, and Türkiye’s positions on these matters over the years: indeed, both the Turkish and the Greek sides have reiterated their positions. I want to particularly highlight the fact that for the first time since the tragedy of Cyprus, a Greek Prime Minister was present in Nicosia on this dark anniversary. Beyond its high symbolism, this is also a major international statement made by the Greek government in solidarity with the Cypriot government.
I want to say this as well: both sides have expressed firm positions. In the past, Mr. Papachlimintzos, we have seen considerably stronger statements from the Turkish side. And I believe that if you consult ERT’s historical archive, which is very rich, you will see that the Turkish President’s statements were, as you would characterize them, much harsher. This does not mean that Türkiye's positions are not contrary to International Law.
I want to categorically tell the Greek people that Greece is currently at the peak of its power, at the peak of its strength. We will continue to prudently exercise our foreign policy. We will continue to conduct a principled foreign policy. We will not back down from our national positions. With strength, persuasion, and International Law as our ally, we believe these positions will be vindicated, ultimately leading to the reunification of Cyprus.
JOURNALIST: Apart from Cyprus, let us discuss two other issues and explore our positions and potential actions. Our positions are challenged by two neighbors: Albania and North Macedonia. Starting with Albania, where the day before yesterday, after finally taking leave and being sworn in as a MEP, Fredi Beleri returned to detention in an Albanian prison. Well, we have not achieved our goal, which was the release of Fredi Beleri.
G. GERAPETRITIS: You realize that our primary goal concerns the safeguarding of our national minority's rights. This involves ensuring that a country aspiring to join the European family adheres to the rule of law. Greece has consistently highlighted these issues from the very beginning, addressing them in all relevant fora. We understand Greece’s capacity to significantly influence both the member states of the European Union, and the EU itself. Unfortunately, during the last two years, during the eighteen months since Fredi Beleri's conviction, there have been serious doubts concerning the rule of law, the presumption of innocence, and the conditions under which this trial was conducted. We continue to highlight this issue. It was an act of goodwill, I believe, to allow Mr. Beleri not only to be sworn in, but also to fully participate in the proceedings of the European Parliament. Mr. Beleri has also submitted a request for a sentence reduction so that he can be immediately released. The Greek government is closely monitoring this issue, actively addressing arising matters. Rest assured that all necessary actions will be taken, and even more.
JOURNALIST: So, for example, you believe that the upcoming elections - because unfortunately, elections will be conducted again in the Municipality of Himarë - will be held under a democratic and free regime, as defined by International Law and the rule of law.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Elections will be held in the Municipality of Himarë on August 4th, Mr. Papachlimintzos. Currently, it appears there will be two candidates, both of Greek origin. We are following closely this matter. I must reiterate that not only is Greece advocating for fair and free elections, but so are the Council of Europe and the OSCE, which are monitoring these elections. Therefore, we realize that these elections will attract significant attention both from Greece and the international community. It goes without saying that at the very least, we expect these elections to be conducted under democratic conditions.
JOURNALIST: Let us turn to our other northern neighbor, North Macedonia. Its state and political leadership officially refers to the country as North Macedonia, yet verbally, it is still referred to as Macedonia. Is this how things will continue? I do not know if you have been in contact or will meet with your new counterpart, and what you expect.
G. GERAPETRITIS: First, let us consider the facts. Currently, we have the Prespa Agreement, which has been agreed upon and ratified by both Parliaments. This Agreement produces legal effects, which cannot be overturned by either country. In fact, the Prespa Agreement explicitly states that the issue of the name, namely the title of North Macedonia, cannot be revised, not even by agreement between the parties. This is a provision that remains in perpetuity. So, we understand that there is currently a clear violation by the political and state leadership. Allow me to say that it is untenable in any legal argument that any political or state leader can refer, beyond the formal framework, to another name for their country. This would actually constitute a direct violation. It is not possible for a President or a Prime Minister, when in public discourse, to invoke private autonomy. These arguments do not stand, neither in domestic Constitutional Law nor in International Law.
Regarding the Prespa Agreement, we have previously identified significant legal and political issues. However, it is binding for all parties involved, and we will insist on that. Mr. Papachlimintzos, I have already undertaken significant efforts to ensure comprehensive and universal information among all our partners and all international organizations. And I can tell you that there is currently serious concern among them regarding the stance of North Macedonia.
We understand that, if this policy, which directly contravenes the international agreements forming the basis of the international security architecture, continues, the Greek side has the means to exert even greater pressure. Means that are both bilateral and multilateral at the level of international organizations.
JOURNALIST: I asked about the Cyprus issue, but I did not ask about the rest of the discussions between Kyriakos Mitsotakis and Tayyip Erdogan. If I am not mistaken, they are set to meet again in New York this September at the United Nations General Assembly. Following a year and a half of relative détente in Greek-Turkish relations, does the government believe it is time to advance dialogue a bit further? And to be clear, could this "a bit further" mean that the two leaders might decide in New York that it is time to see if conditions are ripe enough to bring the exclusive economic zone and continental shelf issues to the table and how could we reach a resolution?
G. GERAPETRITIS: There is ongoing evaluation and assessment of the Greek-Turkish approach. There are instances where indeed some regressions occur. We recognize that the core positions of both parties do not change easily.
On the other hand, we also recognize that there have been serious steps towards positive relations between the two sides. There is a positive agenda, which includes a series of agreements, mainly in the commercial sphere, producing mutually beneficial results. There is good coordination at the level of migration, aimed at combating illegal migration at its source.
This cooperation actually leads to arrests of traffickers, the merchants of human suffering. There is also very effective citizen diplomacy. At the initiative of the Greek government, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in cooperation with the Ministry of Migration and with the consent of the European Commission, we introduced the on-arrival visa program for Turkish citizens to visit our islands. I want to tell you that this measure has been warmly welcomed by the island residents, the Greeks, who see their local economy grow rapidly. It is also very important that citizens of both countries come into direct contact. This creates conditions for mutual understanding.
Of course, we realize that the major and substantive underlying issues, which reproduce and multiply tensions, have not yet been on the table. I am primarily talking about the delimitation of maritime zones. We have repeatedly said that when conditions mature, we would like to discuss this.
JOURNALIST: So, they are not mature yet…
G. GERAPETRITIS: The maturity of the conditions concerns both the implementation of the agreements and the inherent will and desire of the parties. The leaders themselves, who will meet in September on the margins of the UN General Assembly, will assess and determine the next steps.
I would like to tell you that the Greek government is ready to address the issues related to the delimitation, remaining faithful to the fundamental principles of the Law of the Sea. Of course, we acknowledge that this will be challenging. However, I want to confess - and history has consistently demonstrated this - that the only way to achieve long-lasting peace and prosperity, regionally and bilaterally, is to resolve the issues related to maritime zones and, of course, the continental shelf and Exclusive Economic Zone. It is our desire that discussions take place in the near future. However, this will be decided at the highest level.
JOURNALIST: Before we conclude, I would like to ask for your comment on the latest developments in the United States. Last night, we saw Joe Biden's, perhaps not so surprising to some, withdrawal from the presidential race. The Greek government had developed good relations with him in the White House. Concurrently, Donald Trump appears to be the favorite, at least according to the polls. I am not asking for an electoral analysis, but it is a serious possibility that Donald Trump could return to the White House. Many in Athens say that here comes someone who is well known, for instance, for having a very good personal relationship with Tayyip Erdogan. And he doesn't hide it. He openly calls him “my friend Erdogan”.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Let me start with a comment on President Biden's decision not to seek a second term. I believe it was a deliberate, serious, responsible choice on the part of the President. And we understand that it is a very personal decision. As Nietzsche wrote, it is indeed an art to be able to recognize when to let go at the right moment. And I believe in this context, President Biden set aside any vanity for a second term for what he perceived as the good of his party and his country.
I would like to tell you that Greek-US relations are currently deeply rooted and at their best ever. In my opinion, they will not be affected by the elections. Any good personal relationship that may exist between one leader and another does not affect the institutional bilateral relationship that has been developed. There are agreements that are extremely important and multifaceted.
Certainly, we realize that responsible foreign policy, the policy of prudence and wisdom, demands that we be prepared for all scenarios. And that is precisely what we are doing regarding the United States and all our relations with other countries. I firmly believe, however, and I say this in full knowledge, that there is no chance our bilateral relations will be adversely affected.
After all, Greek foreign policy has channels to communicate, not only with political leaders' staff, but also with the US diplomatic service. Consequently, our relationship will remain strong and will be further strengthened.
JOURNALIST: One last personal question, now that I just remembered. There have been quite a few publications recently that involve your name in the speculation for the next Greek Commissioner to the European Union. Is it possible that you will move from Vasilissis Sofias in Athens to Berlaymont in Brussels?
G. GERAPETRITIS: To be honest, I find it entirely inappropriate to discuss such matters while I am in a position that confers the greatest honor a citizen can have, that is leading Greek foreign policy and diplomacy. Allow me to tell you that there are several open issues, national issues of great importance, that require our attention. I will remain committed to my position as Minister of Foreign Affairs, and I am optimistic that in the coming period we will have positive developments at all levels of concern.
JOURNALIST: We hope and wish so. Minister, all the best. Thank you very much for joining us today on the "SYNDESEIS" show.
July 22, 2024