JOURNALIST: We are joined by our first guest, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. George Gerapetritis. Hello, Minister. Welcome.
G. GERAPETRITIS: It is a great honour and thank you very much, Mr. Filippidis.
JOURNALIST: All the best. The honour is ours, as the truth is that foreign policy issues have emerged, and it seems that everything is on course or that there is an opportunity. Someone might say "what opportunity? There is a war between Russia-Ukraine in our region, a war, hostilities in fact, in the Middle East". However, everything else seems to be somewhat on course. Is my sense correct?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Mr. Filippidis, your analysis, as always, is correct. I would like to tell you the following. For the first time Greece is in the midst of two wars. There has been no similar precedent in the post-war period where two wars are unfolding in our neighborhood. For this reason, the current situation is very unusual. We tend to slightly underestimate the significance of wars in our neighborhood as the post-war acquis is status of peace. Unfortunately, this achievement has collapsed, and now there is war in the Middle East, and in Ukraine. Greece has accomplished something very significant, in my opinion. We have managed to have a very strong say, based on principles and rules - and I believe that this should be attributed to Greece's foreign policy and diplomacy over time, which is now bearing fruit. In other words, we are currently able to converse with Israel, as well as with the Arab world, with which we maintain historical ties, and adopt a stance consistent with International Law. The wars have not had any adverse effects on us.
Look at what is currently happening in Germany, France and other countries. In Germany, for example, we are seeing terrorist attacks, which are primarily based on the perception that German foreign policy is viewed as ambivalent. In other countries, there is a stance that renders it extremely difficult to pursue a principled foreign policy. We are currently not at all affected by the wars. Fortunately - and I would like to underscore this - the country's economic and fiscal situation is highly satisfactory, and we are focusing on strengthening the country's defense. As a result, we possess a very strong diplomatic capital. Greece is emerging very strong from extremely adverse international conditions, including global volatility. And I believe that the present is the appropriate moment for Greece to leverage its significant diplomatic capital to resolve issues that have been pending for decades.
JOURNALIST: Pending issues such as those in Greek-Turkish relations, for example? Do we have a chance to close these pending issues when we keep talking about crises?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Ms. Fotaki's comments are always to the point.
JOURNALIST: That is why we have her here, to get to the point.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Certainly, and I believe that her presence at your station is a significant asset. I would like to say the following. Greek-Turkish relations and Cyprus are two major chapters in Greece's national foreign policy over time. Having assumed the leadership of Greek diplomacy with great honor approximately 14 months ago, I took on this extremely heavy burden at an extremely difficult juncture: the war in Ukraine followed by the war in the Middle East in the midst of great instability in Europe, where we all realize that Europe no longer has the unity and solidarity that it had in the past.
JOURNALIST: You mentioned yesterday that we should reinvent Europe and reflect on its values.
G. GERAPETRITIS: We should bring Europe back to the path of the core values upon which it was founded. These values are the tradition of solidarity among states, the tradition of democracy and the rule of law, the tradition of the principles of International Law. It is on these that we must remain steadfast. We found ourselves in this exceptionally difficult situation. The choice was to pursue a highly active policy. You know, as the leader of Greek diplomacy, it would have been easier for me - and I will not hide that such suggestions were made, Mr. Filippidis - to simply maintain a state of relative calm and let time go by without making any substantial progress.
JOURNALIST: In other words, on autopilot.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Yes, that's right.
JOURNALIST: Because when you do nothing, you are safer.
G. GERAPETRITIS: You are both safer and more popular. Ultimately, the risk comes from action, not inaction. But I want to tell you that, under the Prime Minister's instructions, my choice was to be extremely proactive, and this energy was channeled into the Cyprus issue. A year ago, the Cyprus issue was in a state of complete inaction.
JOURNALIST: We had written it off.
G. GERAPETRITIS: I do not know if we had written it off, but what I faced when conversing with the United Nations was a sense of futility regarding the Cyprus issue, that we had reached a point where the two communities no longer had the ability to discuss and promote a solution that would be mutually acceptable and beneficial. A year ago, we were at ground zero. Today, we are at a point where the Cyprus issue is a priority for the United Nations, and I truly feel a great satisfaction that we have managed to reach this point. The United Nations has upgraded the issue of Cyprus to a major priority. And for this reason, both the President of the Republic of Cyprus and the Turkish Cypriot leader have been called to discuss and have bilateral talks on matters concerning the resumption of negotiations for the Cyprus issue. I believe that at this moment, the conditions exist for us to advance the Cyprus issue.
As regards Greek-Turkish relations, which are the second major pillar of Greek diplomacy and a long-standing thorny issue, we have made significant steps. These significant steps are largely attributable to what has now become an assumption - though it wasn't always like that and I am saying this emphatically - : that there are no violations of Greek airspace, no major provocations from Türkiye, and no issues with migration flows, as the ones we had to address in 2015-2016 and 2020. Thus, we are currently in a phase where we can discuss.
You know, I am a deliberative person by nature. This stems from my academic background. I do not believe that we can easily find solutions for everything. We can, at the very least, discuss and seek solutions through dialogue, approaching each issue with a deliberative mindset.
You might ask if we will solve our problems with Türkiye. I am one step ahead, Mr. Filippidis. I have already anticipated this question.
JOURNALIST: If we do not resolve them, these calm waters won't last forever. They're not a given and can be stirred by something else. Sometimes, we create these situations ourselves, like a research vessel conducting site-surveys for a cable near Kasos.
G. GERAPETRITIS: You are trying to provoke me now on this highly sensitive issue. You see, there are often two very different levels of discussion.
There’s the judgement based on principal values: for example, whether Greek-Turkish issues can be resolved through mutual understanding or if there is truly no chance of finding a middle ground at any point. That's a value judgement. There is also the judgment according to which we can discuss and find a solution that ensures prosperity and peace for future generations. That is another value judgement.
However, alongside value judgements, there are the actual facts. There is no second objective version of actual facts. Reality either exists or it does not.
So, the reality in the case of Kasos is very specific and unquestionable, Ms. Fotaki, Mr. Filippidis. What is it that happened?
We have the Greece-Cyprus electrical interconnection. In this context, the research vessel, commissioned by the contracting company, ventured into international waters to conduct its survey. We, the Greek state, granted permission for this research as it is being conducted within Greece's Exclusive Economic Zone.
The Turks, erroneously based on the illegal and null and void Türkiye-Libya Memorandum, claim that the area where the ship sailed is part of the Turkish Exclusive Economic Zone. For this reason, Turkish warships approached the research area.
These are the objective facts. What was the outcome after 36 hours of discussion? The following: The Turkish ships withdrew. There was no - I repeat, no - recognition of the supposed claims of the Turkish side. We did not recognize an Exclusive Economic Zone or continental shelf, obviously because no permission was granted by Türkiye, and the research was completed fully, 100% according to plan.
One might say this was a significant victory for Greek diplomacy. How was the matter presented though, Ms. Fotaki?
JOURNALIST: That’s why I wanted to ask. Why then did we present it as a huge defeat?
G. GERAPETRITIS: You will allow me to say that perhaps this is a matter of self-critique on your part. Because according to the facts, we can prevent crises precisely because we are able to discuss matters with Türkiye.
Ms. Fotaki, you are an experienced journalist, having been in diplomatic reporting for many years. I want you to tell me honestly if you think such a situation in the past would have led to these outcomes. We thus achieved this result, which led to a full survey and complete withdrawal of the Turkish warships. The presentation of the issue, made through the Press to society and by the opposition - I responded thoroughly multiple times, even in Parliament following a question by SYRIZA - was different. I want you to tell me why this happened.
JOURNALIST: It is quite understandable, Minister. And before we give the floor to Dimitris Maniatis who is listening and preparing his question…
JOURNALIST: He asked about Kasos, and I will immediately ask about the interconnection. Because the interconnection interests us just as much.
JOURNALIST: What I feel is that the framework of Greek-Turkish relations has been set as part of the Euro-Turkish relations.
G. GERAPETRITIS: That is right.
JOURNALIST: I have the feeling, or correct me if you like, that this policy line has somewhat weakened on your side, on the government's side. Is it perhaps because we no longer view it in such a context? Or maybe we no longer emphasize it as strongly?
G. GERAPETRITIS: The exact opposite is true. The Greece-Cyprus electrical interconnection is a program of mutual interest for the European Union. It is a PMI (Project of Mutual Interest). This means that it is partly funded by the European Union and is under its umbrella.
Why? Because the European Union ensures that all its member states are in a regime of active energy security. The only country that does not enjoy energy autonomy and security is Cyprus, precisely because of its geographical isolation.
In this regard, the European Union decided to adopt the Common Interest Program of the Greece-Cyprus electrical interconnection. Therefore, it is under the umbrella of the European Commission.
So, we are saying the following. In this context, Greece provides all the necessary clarifications that there will be full geopolitical coverage regarding the electrical interconnection, and this was evident.
How was it evident? It was evident from the fact that the site survey was completed according to its planning. If you ask me, Mr. Maniatis, if this will happen in the future, I will tell you that my feeling is, of course, that it will be completed. A program characterized as of European Common Interest cannot easily be hindered by anyone.
So, for us, it is very important that there is this geopolitical umbrella of the European Union over this program. On the other hand, we cannot ignore the objective facts. My compatriots in Kasos and Karpathos saw that. The research vessel sailed in Greek territorial waters, sailed in international waters in the Greek Exclusive Economic Zone, and completed the survey. I reiterate. It completed the survey according to the planning and we can now consider that the program is progressing without being hindered.
If you ask me if Türkiye will retreat from the claims it has, Mr. Filippidis, the answer is clear: It will not retreat. I am neither utopian nor naive. I do not believe that Türkiye, overnight, will consider that the Türkiye-Libya Memorandum does not exist, that the "blue homeland" does not exist.
JOURNALIST: So, how will we find a solution?
G. GERAPETRITIS: The answer, Ms. Fotaki, is very clear. At this moment, Türkiye is raising claims based on the theory of the "blue homeland," - which does not comply with international law - and on the null and void Türkiye-Libya memorandum. These are the claims being raised by Türkiye. Why are these claims being raised? Because Greece and Türkiye have not delimitated maritime zones yet, namely the continental shelf and the Exclusive Economic Zone. When will the issues that concern the underlying differences between Greece and Türkiye be definitively resolved? When will we stop seeing, Mr. Filippidis, Turkish ships, not obstructing, but being present and signaling that Türkiye is raising claims? Only when we delimitate the maritime zones with Türkiye. That is the answer and the message that emerges. In the case of Kasos, the fact that the survey was finished, may have benefited the Greek side in the end, but it remains to be seen if similar incidents will occur until we reach an agreement on delimitation with Türkiye.
JOURNALIST: Allow me to play the role of the provocateur. It could be said that in Kasos we saw a crisis and retreat, as reported by the media.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Did you see a crisis? Allow me to reverse our roles for a moment. Let me become the questioner and you the questioned. Knowing the history of Greece and the Greek-Turkish relations, I want you to tell me if what happened in Kasos constituted a crisis, detrimental to Greek interests.
JOURNALIST: For me, no.
JOURNALIST: However, this issue has caused some concern in Cyprus due to the increase in geopolitical risk...
G. GERAPETRITIS: We will address that too. So, you explicitly consider that there was no crisis and that there was no retreat, no recognition of Türkiye's sovereign rights and that it was to the benefit of Greece.
JOURNALIST: I agree. But the media to a great extent and the opposition, accused Greek diplomacy of retreating, of a crisis, of an incident, or of anything in this case. When we will have to delimit, how we will explain the longstanding narrative - that Greece's Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) extends up to Cyprus - without anyone who signs it being accused of treason?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Ms. Fotaki, you're talking to a man with a profound sense of national pride. You are talking to a man who is in this position just to serve national interests. I will never put my signature or compromise my legacy with something that is detrimental to the nation.
I think that no Foreign Minister, no Prime Minister - never, whether it is today’s New Democracy, SYRIZA in the past, or any future Prime Minister or Foreign Minister - will consent to something that is detrimental to national interests. So, I would like to tell you this. There is an opportunity right now, a historic window of opportunity to resolve the major issues we have with Türkiye. Mr. Filippides, such opportunities do not often come along in history.
JOURNALIST: And wars are a momentum, let’s admit it. It's unfortunate, but they are.
G. GERAPETRITIS: I would never say that wars create momentum. However, I would like to say that, at the moment, Greece possesses a very strong international diplomatic capital. This is not only defined by Greece’s strong diplomatic position, but also by its fiscal and economic status, its geopolitical footprint, and its defense capabilities. If, therefore, the combination of all these factors leads us to the conclusion that Greece today possesses a strong capital and if there is also a willingness on Türkiye’s part to discuss not merely the issues that cause daily tensions - such as the tension arising from illegal fishing or from irregular migration - but to address the source of the problem, then the Greek people must understand that the root of the problems in our relations with Türkiye lies in the delimitation of the Exclusive Economic Zone and the continental shelf.
JOURNALIST: Are the conditions mature for political dialogue to address challenging issues? Are the conditions mature to engage in political dialogue on difficult issues?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Only when we resolve the issues related to the delimitation of maritime zones with Türkiye, can we talk about long-term peace and prosperity in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean. We have to understand that Mr. Maniatis.
JOURNALIST: But doesn't Türkiye have to abandon the “blue homeland” dogma for this to happen?
G. GERAPETRITIS: It is obvious that we have to move away from maximalist attitudes. This is non-negotiable. Under no circumstances can we accept those doctrines that have developed, you know, over time. Allow me to share something with you, a short story. In 2002 the exploratory talks began. In reality, the sole objective has been how to discuss the delimitation of maritime zones. I repeat in 2002.
JOURNALIST: 22 years ago.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Ι am talking to you honestly, with national prudence and patriotism, there is a historical window of opportunity. Actually, in 2002 these contacts began the day after the Imia crisis in 1997 - that’s when the discussions started within the framework of the European Union, with bilateral and later trilateral talks under Tom Miller, and so on. From 2002 to 2022, for 20 years, we have been discussing the issues of delimitation within the context of exploratory talks. Do you know how many rounds of exploratory talks were held?
JOURNALIST: Sixty-four.
G. GERAPETRITIS: Congratulations, Ms. Fotaki. Sixty-four rounds of exploratory contacts have been held, so we can say that we are getting closer to a resolution on the delimitation issue. What progress has been made in twenty years?
JOURNALIST: None.
G. GERAPETRITIS: No. In fact, we are perhaps in a worse position than we were before 2002. Because every time we had a discussion, unfortunately, new issues arose, maximalist tendencies on the part of Türkiye, which made the task even more difficult. That is why I say: If in 20 years and 64 rounds of exploratory talks we have not been able to reach a level where we can discuss not even the process - let alone the substance -, then today presents an opportunity, because we can talk to Türkiye with a certain degree of honesty. Because the leaders of both countries have shown a tangible willingness to discuss these issues. And the international geopolitical environment has changed substantially. At the moment, I think more than ever before, the political and geopolitical time is moving at a lightning speed. You begin to talk about things in the morning and by the afternoon they have become a reality.
JOURNALIST: Did we see this in the Türkiye-Egypt case as well?
G. GERAPETRITIS: Allow me to make a remark regarding the case of Türkiye and Egypt. However, before doing so, in order not to leave anything unclear, I would like to say the following. What has been proven over time is that, when geopolitical time moves at highspeed, being inactive leads to regression. If we take a political decision today to leave things as they are, we can ease tensions somewhat so that we are not faced with major crises.
JOURNALIST: To whom are you addressing this? Are you saying this within the party as well?
G. GERAPETRITIS: No. I'm saying it primarily to the Greek society, Mr. Filippidis. Because the truth is that we all have to understand that the geopolitical environment is such that it requires a very proactive policy. We cannot turn a blind eye to everything that is going on around us. And regarding Egypt, because Mr. Maniatis is right to raise it: We have had the discussion, the meeting, the agreements. I would like to be clear. I want to assure you, your audience and the Greek people: Relations between Greece and Egypt are deep-rooted. They are not negated, harmed, or revoked. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to discuss extensively with the Egyptian Foreign Minister. I would like to say the following: I sincerely wish for all allied countries, all our strategic partners, to have good relations with their neighbors and good relations with Türkiye. However, you can only have a strategic relationship with one partner. We are strategic partners with Egypt. Therefore, there is absolutely no danger. I have further strengthened this historically and over time deeply-fostered relationship, ensuring there's no risk of it being downgraded.
JOURNALIST: Before we wrap up, one last question. Will there be an electrical interconnection between Greece and Cyprus? I understand that the Cypriots, the Cypriot government, are carefully considering it.
G. GERAPETRITIS: As I have already mentioned. This is a project of great importance and common interest for the European Union. It will lift Cyprus’ energy isolation, and it will integrate the country into the European energy map. For us, it is very important in terms of energy and geopolitics. Obviously, the technical and financial conditions need to be met. I would like to emphasize this strongly. I don't believe there is any geopolitical risk associated with this project, and I do not believe that there is any danger of this interconnection being obstructed. International law – Ms. Fotaki knows that, but I point it out for our dear friends as well – protects all site surveys conducted for the electrical interconnection, as well as the installation of the cables. So, there is no chance that this cable will be impeded. Of course, whether it is economically viable and geopolitically appropriate, is a different issue. However, this project is very important for Greece. We have invested in it. Moreover, the contractor company is a Greek company, and in fact, a public interest company. We fully support this project.
JOURNALIST: Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you.
G. GERAPETRITIS: It was a great honor. Thank you.
September 6, 2024