A. PAVLOPOULOS: Good morning, many happy returns, merry Christmas! It’s the day before Christmas Eve, let’s get going!
D. KOUTROKOI: Let’s bid good morning to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Nikos Dendias.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Good morning, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Good morning, many happy returns to you too.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: And to you, let us wish everyone a merry and calm Christmas.
D. KOUTROKOI: And welcome back, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: It is nice to return to one’s country.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Will this Christmas be a calm one?
N. DENDIAS: As far as we are concerned, I can assure you with absolute certainty that Greece is always a peaceful country.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Because I must tell you that people are concerned, surely you’ve perceived this in your social circles following recent events.
N. DENDIAS: There is a certain sensation of uncertainty. However, I think the situation is stabilising — and this is just a hope, I cannot be certain of what other countries are doing — that everything is proceeding very well in the context of reason and international law.
D. KOUTROKOI: You know, Minister, when people hear “Dendias on lightning trip to Libya”, they grow somewhat concerned and expect assurances from you that there is no reason for concern.
N. DENDIAS: But the visit to Libya concerned contact with a side which, based purely on its statements, has supported and continues to support the views of Greece. It can in no way affect the everyday lives of Greek citizens. Perish the thought!
A. PAVLOPOULOS: However, as it was an extraordinary visit, I would like to ask which conditions dictated...
N. DENDIAS: No, so that we understand each other, it was announced (extraordinarily).
A. PAVLOPOULOS: So it was not urgent.
N. DENDIAS: This was a scheduled trip, a scheduled contact. After the position adopted by the Tripoli government, I think it was clear that the Greek side needed to form a clear image regarding the remaining institutional establishment that makes up the present-day puzzle in Libya — and I am referring to the Parliament, with the President of the House of Representatives visiting Athens, and the commander of the armed forces, Field Marshal Haftar. This was the objective during my visit to Benghazi yesterday.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Can the side you met guarantee that it will block the application of the agreement concluded between Erdoğan and the other side? Because that’s the most pressing issue.
N. DENDIAS: The head of the Libyan National Army is of the view, which we share, that these agreements are null and void. This is absolutely clear, and I think this statement is the best outcome we could have hoped for. This statement is not only in the interest of Greece, but also in the interest of Libya, the Libyan people, and security and stability in the region.
D. KOUTROKOI: There is condemnation on all sides — but what does this support, this condemnation, mean in practice?
N. DENDIAS: What do you mean in practice? A legal document was signed, purported to be a legal document between the Tripoli government and the Turkish government, and the answer on the validity and existence of this legal document is the answer given by all other sides. It serves a legal action, a legal response.
D. KOUTROKOI: However, we seem to have banked our diplomatic capital on the Haftar side. How certain are you that, should Haftar’s side ultimately prevail and occupy Tripoli, they will annul the agreement — an agreement which you indeed call null and void, but in order for a bilateral agreement between states to be annulled, the counterparty, Turkey in this case, must also be considered.
N. DENDIAS: With all due respect, your reasoning is completely flawed. We are not saying that there is an agreement that must be annulled. We are saying that there is no valid agreement. Consequently, if there is no valid agreement, how can action be taken to annul something that does not exist?
This agreement is non-existent. It is legally non-existent under Libyan law, it is legally non-existent under the Law of Treaties, there is the Vienna Convention which determines when a treaty exists and when it is completely non-existent, under the Law of the Sea, because — to give you an example — it would be as if France and Canada were to decide to split the Atlantic Ocean between them, disregarding the fact that Great Britain lies in the middle.
Therefore, all the above suggest that there is no agreement.
D. KOUTROKOI: So what are we discussing, Minister? If there is no agreement, what exactly are we discussing?
N. DENDIAS: I am not discussing anything. I am making the contacts required by the country’s diplomatic interests, in order to clearly document the views of all sides regarding Turkey's diplomatic actions. The members of the international community are adopting positions.
If I might interrupt you for a minute, in the context of the previous question something was said that I cannot leave unanswered, as it might create the wrong impression, particularly among the international community: that Greece has banked its money, its capital on the Haftar side. That is not accurate. Greece, as always, has banked its diplomatic capital on the peaceful resolution of the dispute and on creating and achieving a solution that will safeguard the peace, stability and interest of the Libyan people.
Therefore, we support the Berlin process and, to this end, have expressly advised both Field Marshal Haftar and the President of the House of Representatives to join the Berlin process in order to find a solution. And why do we do this, you might ask? We do this because it is in the interest of both Greece and the global community.
A stable and peaceful Libya would not accept the mind-boggling things that Mr Sarraj, under duress, signed with Turkey. These things harm the interests of Libya, as well. Therefore, let us be clear: Greece supports the peace process with all its power and all its diplomatic capital.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Minister, the truth is that, at the diplomatic level, many initiatives have been taken, statements and announcements have been made, the Summit — to cut a long story short, Trump signed yesterday, Italy, France, Israel, Egypt, Cyprus, so the question is whether you believe this diplomatic framework that has been erected will be able to stop Mr Erdoğan.
N. DENDIAS: That is an interesting question. We are not creating a front against Turkey. We do not consider Turkey a country that needs to be surrounded.
If Turkey has such fears, they are unfounded. We have repeatedly called upon Turkey to participate in processes for peace and stability in the region, and I am certain that an experienced statesman such as President Erdoğan and a Minister of Foreign Affairs such as my friend, Mr Çavuşoğlu, are very well aware of the limits prescribed by International Law and the international community, and they will take any action they must within these limits.
We look forward to warm relations with Turkey — but whether or not this will be achieved is up to Turkey.
D. KOUTROKOI: Minister, the foreign Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mrs Dora Bakoyannis, spoke of the need to revise our policy regarding Turkey, spoke of appealing to the Hague. Mr Venizelos, the foreign Minister of Foreign Affairs, stated that Greece must protect and not simply appear to be protecting its sovereign rights. Yesterday, Mr Çavuşoğlu made statements and gave an interview to the ‘Sunday Vima’, making direct reference to the Hague, and stating that the issue was not discussed in London during the meeting with Tayyip Erdoğan, which you also attended.
Under these circumstances, is this a favourable climate for going to the Hague?
N. DENDIAS: You are asking me about something that is not currently on the table. There is no Turkish proposal with a specific framework. As you are aware, the Hague is not a tourist destination, where you simply board a plane, get there and get off.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: However, your counterpart has made a public statement.
D. KOUTROKOI: As have former Ministers of Foreign Affairs.
N. DENDIAS: I imagine the statements of former Ministers of Greece are not binding upon Turkey; it would be very pleasant if this were the case, but alas it is not. However, I am aware of their views. I have spoken with all former Ministers of Foreign Affairs, save one, I have spoken with all of them and am aware of their views, as I am obligated to do in order to be aware of the views of those who tackled these issues in the past. This is our country’s acquired diplomatic capital and cannot be ignored.
As regards Turkey, it has taken actions that exceed the limits of International Law, such as the unfathomable memoranda signed with Libya which, to reiterate, exceed not only the limits of the law but also the limits of reason. I gave you an example to illustrate the limits of absurdity. A statement such as that of Mr Çavuşoğlu, which I interpret not in a strictly procedural sense, “let us go to the Hague”, but in the broader political sense: “Do you intend to reach a common solution?” Greece’s answer has been, throughout the country's history, and remains under the Mitsotakis government even more intense. Of course, we intend to reach a solution with Turkey.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: On which matter?
D. KOUTROKOI: And under which circumstances?
N. DENDIAS: But a solution in which framework of reference? In the framework of International Law and the framework of a solution that ensures peace and stability in the region. If Turkey expresses such a desire, it will find Greece the most willing interlocutor.
As I said before, we do not consider Turkey to be an a priori enemy.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: To clarify: Greece intends to appeal to the Hague — is this not so? - only for a single issue, that of the continental shelf.
N. DENDIAS: Greece and Turkey have an established difference, as you correctly stated, just as you say, only one: A dispute over the continental shelf.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: The question is whether they are asking us to go to the Hague to discuss and settle the new circumstances resulting from the agreement, which we consider null and void.
D. KOUTROKOI: It goes beyond that, Minister. It seems from Mr Çavuşoğlu’s interview that Turkey does not recognise that islands not only do not have a continental shelf, but no EEZ either, they simply have territorial waters — and this was made clear in his statements yesterday regarding Kastellorizo, regarding Rhodes...
N. DENDIAS: The view that Turkey purports to hold, which I do not think it truly holds but is merely stating in an effort to strengthen its negotiating position, is that islands only have territorial waters. However, you must understand that such as conclusion on his part, misinterpreting certain decisions of international judicial bodies, is not a valid decision, let alone a valid position in the context of law.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: You said we are speaking with all former Ministers of Foreign Affairs save one. Would that be Mr Kotzias?
N. DENDIAS: It’s pointless now, I am not pointing fingers, I simply have spoken to almost all my predecessors.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Except Mr Kotzias?
N. DENDIAS: Is that important at all?
A. PAVLOPOULOS: All right.
D. KOUTROKOI: Minister, next Monday, Greek experts will be travelling to Rome in order to discuss establishing an EEZ with Italy. You have stated that we are expediting our talks with Egypt. Is it finally the appropriate juncture in time to establish EEZs with these two countries, at least, Italy and Egypt? Is there a timeframe for this?
N. DENDIAS: It remains to be seen if it is the appropriate juncture, but I believe both countries are our friends. We work with Italy in the context of the European Union and enjoy warm relations with Egypt. This is fourth time I meet with the Egyptian Minister, I have visited Cairo on three occasions. These are countries with which we enjoy warm relations, and Italy is our partner and friend in the European Union.
Consequently, there is both a framework and a climate. We must resolve technical details. We will mount a major effort, a new effort to resolve these differences which, in my opinion, may divide us but are by no means unbridgeable.
D. KOUTROKOI: Nevertheless, Minister, since you said that we wish to have dialogue with Turkey and enjoy good relations with Turkey, I wonder if, listening to Erdoğan in recent days, who even yesterday, just yesterday, repeated once more that the agreement is valid, that we will not step back, just like we did not step back with Syria.
I cannot see us ultimately reaching an accord with Turkey when Erdoğan persists in continuously making such inflammatory remarks.
N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you this: Early in the morning, I scan the international television channels to catch up with what is happening, and President Erdoğan said, in relation to refugees, that Greece will suffer. Very well...
D. KOUTROKOI: He raised the number from 50,000 to 80,000.
N. DENDIAS: With all due respect, he sometimes tends to express himself in a manner that is not exactly commonplace on the international scene. However, this is a matter that concerns Turkey. If you want my view, I cannot judge President Erdoğan, he is accountable to Turkish society and the Turkish people, not to us. We look forward to heartfelt dialogue and amicable relations with him. The way he chooses to express himself is telling for himself and is not of concern to us...
D. KOUTROKOI: So, you believe he is not so much addressing the International Community or us as he is those in Turkey.
N. DENDIAS: Since you’re stating it so frankly, I suspect he is addressing those in Turkey.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: You have been criticised in two respects: According to the first, you did not ask for sanctions at the EU Summit and, in fact, this morning, the Cypriot government spokesperson told us over telephone that Greece and Cyprus did not raise the issue of sanctions against Turkey. I don’t know is this actually the situation. I am asking you to confirm or deny this statement.
As to the second, the Greek Prime Minister spoke of a positive attitude and mutual concessions. Which issues should we concede to Turkey?
N. DENDIAS: Let me start with the second part. I believe the Greek Prime Minister always expresses himself in a manner that safeguards the country’s interests and a climate that allows for dialogue able to bear results.
Beyond that, the Greek Prime Minister, Mr Mitsotakis, has repeatedly expressed his view and, on his instructions, I am expressing it as well — and what is this view? That Greece cannot cede any part of its sovereign rights and sovereignty. This is our constitutional obligation, it is not a novelty, it is not a news item, I am telling you the constitutional limit...
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Where are we willing to make concessions?
N. DENDIAS: Look, it would be frivolous, to say the least, if we were to start discussing where we could take a step back or a step forward in a negotiation. However, to reiterate, we cannot but uphold our sovereignty and sovereign rights. And why is that? Because we would have no right to do that. Our Constitution dictates the framework within which each government can take actions.
Therefore, please let it be made clear that this is what Mr Mitsotakis’ statement concerned. It is absolutely clear, he has stated this repeatedly.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: What about sanctions? Because Syriza says, I gave you a ready-to-use tool and you are not using it.
N. DENDIAS: Look, I do not consider foreign policy in the context of party politics. I want to reach understandings with other parties, I believe there is common ground and these times are so critical that the last thing our country, our society and our national interests need is party skirmishes.
So, as to the substance of your question: The framework for sanctions was agreed upon, following hard work on our part and on the party of Cyprus, during the November Council. Beyond that, the tactic through which we wish to implement the framework of sanctions is purely an issue of tactics, as I said in Parliament. The general public must forgive me on this, but I cannot express views on tactical issues in public and reveal our tactics.
I was in Cyprus yesterday and remain in constant contact with Nikos Christodoulides in order to determine the path forward.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: So you are saying we haven't set this option aside...
N. DENDIAS: Just a minute, excuse me, but to use a common Greek expression, “hold up, I’m refilling”. How could we have set it aside?
We are the ones who supported the effort leading to the Council’s decision to establish a framework of sanctions and this is a historic decision, it is no simple thing. The European Union doesn’t just toss sanctions about willy nilly. It is too heavy for 27 or 28 countries to decide upon. However, when we implement it is a matter of tactics, and it is our prerogative to arrange the timing of our tactics according to our national interests.
This cannot take place in the context of public deliberations, Syriza also understands this, so there is no issue.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: I am saying it, Minister, because there is public criticism and people hear this criticism and say: “We brought up sanctions, then tossed them away and don’t wish to impose sanctions, and the other fellow is traipsing about?” Please excuse any coarseness in my language, I speak like any grocer on the street might speak.
N. DENDIAS: That’s fine, my father was a grocer.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: And I love groceries. In any event, I am just speaking plainly.
N. DENDIAS: The day before yesterday, the competent Committee convened and examined a list of sanctions against persons and against companies. However, as I said in Parliament in response to criticism by the main opposition party during the budget debate, with all due respect to their views, I do not consider any view anathema, and all criticism is acceptable. Thinking that one alone knows the truth is unacceptable.
This is a matter of national interest, all opinions must be respected and we will listen to them and must use them. But this is not a matter of principle as to whether sanctions will or will not exist. We achieved — and it was not achieved by Syriza, but by the current government — the European Council adopting a framework of sanctions. As for how we will implement what we achieved, please allow me to have the tactical opportunity to arrange the means at our disposal according to the circumstances. As anyone might understand, this cannot take place in the context of public dialogue.
D. KOUTROKOI: If they proceed with drilling off the shores of Kastellorizo, as they have announced...
N. DENDIAS: Drilling?
D. KOUTROKOI: We saw Erdoğan, he will send a third vessel... When you are watching Erdoğan for a week with computer in hand pointing at maps and pointing at where he will send vessels, it stands to reason that we would ask you this.
A. TASOULI: If they send a research vessel and there is no drilling, how will we react?
N. DENDIAS: It is my hope that, in any case, at the end of the day, Turkey will act in accordance with common sense, International Law and its own interests. Let me reiterate that there is no reason for Turkey to isolate itself. Turkey is making a mistake, in my modest view, if it chooses to isolate itself.
Therefore, I consider your questions hypothetical and believe we will not have to answer them in practice, because Turkey will not take actions provocative enough to fully isolate it. In any event, in order to be absolutely frank and not hide behind our finger, Greece will take any action necessary to protect its sovereignty and its sovereign rights. Any action necessary.
We have made it clear that we are not threatening anyone, and have given the same answer at every register to everyone who has asked us this question, whether overtly like you or covertly, with the door closed: that Greece will take any action necessary to protect its sovereignty and its sovereign rights.
And to repeat what I said in Parliament: We can do it alone, but we are not alone. However, I am hopeful that this will not come to pass. And I look forward to warm, long-term relations with Turkey leading to a different framework in our region.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: The signing of East Med on January 2nd...
A. TASOULI: It is important, but Italy will once again be absent, Minister, just as it was absent in March 2019.
N. DENDIAS: No, wait, let me explain. Italy has an issue, a tangible issue, which it has explained to us. It concerns the endpoint of the pipeline for environmental reasons.
Certain local communities disagree, as was also the case in Greece. There is a debate, which is veering towards the EastMed pipeline terminating at the TAP off the shores of the Italian coast so that we don't have two endpoints. Therefore, the Italian side has certain reservations until the solution is finalised.
On principle, though, Italy is absolutely in agreement. So, it was chosen to sign the section that concerns the three countries and to have the Italian participation take place as an accession at a later stage. This is an absolutely valid procedure, it is very important, it is fundamental for both Greek and European energy policy and for both Greek and European foreign policy to see this signing take place on the second day of the new year. And let us please celebrate this fact as exceptionally important.
D. KOUTROKOI: When you visit the White House, accompanying the Prime Minister on January 7th, which topics will be included in the agenda of discussions with Mr Trump?
N. DENDIAS: Let me rephrase your question: What won’t be included? As you surely understand, the agenda is enormous.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: The question is, if I might tweak Alexia Tasouli’s question, upon leaving Washington and the White House, will you repeat what has been said not only by Mr Apostolakis but by your own officials as well: that if something goes wrong, we'll be on our own.
N. DENDIAS: I answered this before: we can do it alone, but we are not alone. Nevertheless, we can still do it alone.
A. PAVLOPOULOS: Thank you very much. Have a good day.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you, many happy returns of the day.
December 23, 2019