V. CHIOTIS: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I promised you that today we would talk to two ministers of this government to look at current affairs. They are taking their first steps, charting their policy, and it will be interesting to see how they are getting to work following the reading of the governments policy statements. The first one we want to talk to, in the next few minutes, is the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias, in his first interview as Minister of Foreign Affairs, because things are a little difficult with our national issues. The previous government didn’t stay on top of these issues – anyway, they said they did. Let’s go directly to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and to Nikos Dendias, whom we welcome on the telephone line. Good afternoon, Mr. Dendias.
N. DENDIAS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chiotis, to you and your listeners.
V. CHIOTIS: Thank you very much for the invitation, because I realise that you don’t have a lot of time on your hands at this point in the summer. You didn’t even have time to enjoy your election as MP or your being made a minister, from what I understand. Isn’t that right?
N. DENDIAS: We all understand this. There are things that have to be done, and they have to be done fast. What can we do. That’s how it is. As a sign at my school read, “the opportunities which events afford will not wait for our slothful evasions.”
V. CHIOTIS: I’ll copy that. I like it a lot. I want us to start with Greek-Turkish relations, because I heard the Prime Minister, in his policy statements, call on Tayyip Erdogan to take the first step with him and attempt a new Greek-Turkish rapprochement. But this is a thorny path. I read some statements today – you will have seen them – from the Turkish ambassador to Athens, who says that “Europe can’t wag its finger at us,” even though he welcomes the Greek government’s invitation to dialogue. And I want to ask, can this dialogue be launched in the current state of affairs? In other words, can a dialogue begin with our neighbours while they are doing this drilling in Cyprus?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, I don’t have the right or the mandate, and I am not allowed, to speak on behalf of the Republic of Cyprus. What’s more, with regard to the issues concerning Cyprus, we have taken a very clear position in the context of the Council of Ministers of the European Union and in the framework of the sanctions that have to be imposed on Turkey, with regard to the issues concerning the violations of the sovereign rights of the Republic of Cyprus.
With regard to the issue that concerns Greece, I think the Prime Minister took the right stance during the debate on the policy statements. The Prime Minister extended an olive branch to Turkey; an olive branch that is always linked to the self-evident condition of complete respect for international law and international treaties.
Because this isn’t a dialogue ‘from scratch’ with Turkey. We aren’t talking in uncharted waters. There is an international framework. And in this international framework, of course, we can talk to our Turkish neighbours. Because, you know, you don’t choose your neighbours. They’re just there. If we were Luxembourg or Belgium, maybe everything would have a different dimension. We would save money and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs would be a nice and very pleasant Ministry. The Defence Ministry would practically not exist. Everything would be great.
V. CHIOTIS: Can this first dialogue, this first attempt to start talking again, take place as long as the drilling in Cyprus continues?
N. DENDIAS: As I said, we don’t speak on behalf of the Republic of Cyprus.
V. CHIOTIS: No, I’m asking you to speak on behalf of the Greek government.
N. DENDIAS: Beyond that, the second thing I say is that, for us, what is always of huge importance is compliance with international law and international treaties. This is an inviolable rule. In this context Kyriakos Mitsotakis, as the President of the Government, addressed the head of the Turkish state, who is the President of the Government there, because the system is presidential. Beyond that, we will see how the Turks take this invitation. But so that we understand each other, Mr. Chiotis – the Prime Minister said this and you will allow me to repeat it – the country’s sovereign rights are not negotiable. We have to be clear about this with our Turkish friends, our neighbours. They have to understand that there is an international framework. It is based on that framework that we talk to each other.
V. CHIOTIS: Have you been in contact with your Turkish counterpart? Is a first meeting being scheduled, for an initial exchange of views?
N. DENDIAS: Apart from the cordial message he was kind enough to send as soon as I was appointed, because I know Mr. Cavusoglu and I know him well – and he said this himself; this is nothing new – this will happen at the right time and place.
V. CHIOTIS: But not in the coming weeks, from what I understand.
N. DENDIAS: No one can predict the future. But if you ask me about next week, for which I know the programme, no, there isn’t a meeting scheduled and the preparations for such a meeting have not been made.
V. CHIOTIS: To finish with Greek-Turkish relations, because there are other things I want to ask about, following the invitation to dialogue extended to Turkey by the Greek government, we saw some initial reactions. The first one wasn’t especially positive, with these recent statements from Mr. Cavusoglu. Isn’t that right?
N. DENDIAS: Are you talking about the agreement with the European Union? Is that the Cavusoglu statement you are referring to?
V. CHIOTIS: That is exactly what I am referring to.
N. DENDIAS: I don’t want to characterize Turkish statements, but I think that, in actuality, it was a blank shot towards the Greek government. In other words, one can see it from both sides, Mr. Chiotis. You can look at it in terms of phrasing, or you can read between the lines if you want to. It’s a matter of interpretation. We’ll see which of the two is the case. I don’t know what the correct interpretation is. I can’t tell you I hold the key to the truth regarding the thoughts of the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs or of Turkey's deep state. But it’s clear to me that there are two interpretations of this.
V. CHIOTIS: You sound optimistic to me.
N. DENDIAS: No, I’m cautious. I’m not optimistic.]
V. CHIOTIS: You’re not?
N. DENDIAS: But I’m not pessimistic either. This is an old and very troubled story. You said yourself, earlier, the matters that concern the Cyprus issue, which weigh on my soul – I won’t hide it from you – a great deal. Forty-five years of occupation. It’s unbelievable!
V. CHIOTIS: And from what I understand you will be accompanying the Prime Minister on his first visit, this Monday.
N. DENDIAS: Of course. It’s customary, but I will do it with great pleasure, and I say this sincerely. I love Cyprus. But this issue has to be resolved in the framework of international law and the international treaties, and Turkey has to understand this. We can’t continue on this basis. But we will attempt to resolve it in any way we can. Now, as for what the result will be – it takes two, as you know. It always takes two to tango, as the English saying goes.
V. CHIOTIS: Did your recent visit to the U.S. leave you with a positive impression? Did you find the understanding that Greece is always trying to find with a great country like America, with regard to Greek-Turkish relations?
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Chiotis, I’ll be frank. First of all, there is a “thermometer” in this story: when they invite you and what appointment they give you. The fact that I hadn’t even been sworn in yet and I saw the Secretary of State and, on the same day, the National Security Advisor – apart from the other meetings I had with Congress and with the Secretary of Health – and that my appointments with the two top officials were arranged for the same day, only two days ahead of time. This says something about what America wants.
V. CHIOTIS: This is definitely positive, but it’s positive that they saw you so fast. I don’t know how positive the things said in the meetings were.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll say this: if they don’t want to listen to you, or if they want to reject what you say, they’ll be in no hurry to see you.
V. CHIOTIS: They don’t see you.
N. DENDIAS: Let’s be honest. You know I can’t go into detail, but they’re in no hurry to get rid of you, no hurry to reject you, no hurry to insult you. When they want to see you fast, it means that, in any case, there is ground that can be cultivated. Let me also say that the Acting Assistant Secretary also came to Athens immediately, three days later; Mr. Reeker, who saw half of the cabinet and the head of the opposition. And he didn’t just come for a jaunt. We are also scheduling, and there is a good likelihood we will have, a visit from Mr. Pompeo in the fall, in Athens, for the second phase of the Strategic Dialogue. General Walters came a couple of days ago. He saw my colleague Mr. Panagiotopoulos, he went to Larissa. There is a lot of movement. Let’s not kid ourselves.
V. CHIOTIS: Is a meeting between the Greek Prime Minister and the U.S. President being scheduled for the fall?
N. DENDIAS: I don’t know yet.
V. CHIOTIS: I heard something, because there is the UN General Assembly every year, in September.
N. DENDIAS: That’s why I said we will see. But on that level, too, bear in mind that Mr. Pence talked to Mr. Mitsotakis to congratulate him, and right after that Mr. Trump called to congratulate him as well. This doesn’t usually happen. This, in particular, has never happened before. I don’t know of its happening in another country. All of this says something. Will all of this lead to our getting the tangible result we want? And regarding which we also can’t take an open stance, like a “wish list.” But we’ll see. But there is ground we can build on, Mr. Chiotis. Because if there is no ground to build on, it doesn’t matter what you want.
V. CHIOTIS: Now, as a suspicious journalist I will ask something else. Is all this warmth from the Americans perhaps a cover for their requests that weren’t satisfied in the past.
N. DENDIAS: I want to be frank. First of all, I believe in consensus and agreement on national issues, and I won’t start levelling accusations at my predecessors. But I have to say that I didn’t see much refusal from Syriza – from the previous government – to satisfy American requests. I’m not saying this was good or bad. Excuse me, I’m not criticizing. I’m just saying this isn’t the case. In fact, I’m pleased because, under the previous government, a portion of the Left finally realised that the country’s longstanding orientations on foreign policy are the ones that have to be maintained with regard to the United States, with regard to NATO, with regard to Israel, although this doesn’t mean we will neglect good relations with China, with Russia. This is something else. But the Left had questioned this.
V. CHIOTIS: Your schedule from here on? You went to America, you’re going to Cyprus. After that?
N. DENDIAS: Before I go to Cyprus, I’ll be going to Israel on Sunday. I’ll go to see my counterpart and to see Prime Minister Netanyahu.
V. CHIOTIS: Right. Another issue you will be dealing with in the Council of Foreign Ministers is yesterday’s election of Boris Johnson in Britain. The Prime Minister spoke with Boris Johnson earlier. He congratulated him on his new duties, but I think you will agree that he might not be the right person for a smooth EU-UK divorce or to get the British people to rethink things and hold a new referendum. Are you concerned about the prospect of a disorderly Brexit.
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Chiotis, first of all, it’s not up to us to judge who the British people choose as their leader. This is up to them, and their judgement is respected. We will work with whomever the British people choose. I knew Tereza May and I knew Cameron. I don’t know Boris Johnson, but I will work with him, as I should. As a Ministry, we have an issue: the Brexit concerns us. At tomorrow’s cabinet meeting, Mr. Varvitsiotis, the Alternate Minister, will deliver a briefing. Because we have to prepare our country for this eventuality, and I have to say, because I want to be frank, that the United Kingdom is a friendly country, a historical friend of Greece. We will try to do the best we can to facilitate the Brexit’s happening in the way the government of the United Kingdom sees, interprets and understands the decision of the British people. And we will also help the Greeks. Many Greeks live in Great Britain. They work there, they feel at home in Great Britain. Just consider the number of Greek students there are at English universities!
V. CHIOTIS: Of course.
N. DENDIAS: So what is our job, as the Ministry? By 31 October, we need to be as well-prepared as possible for the Brexit in the form the British government wants it to take. We can no longer express judgement on that.
V. CHIOTIS: Do you think it will happen in October? Because we are seeing constant postponements, indecision ...
N. DENDIAS: If you asked me as an MP or as a citizen, I might give you an interesting analysis, because I know England pretty well and I have longstanding ties with the Conservative Party – I studied there. But as Minister of Foreign Affairs, I have to stay silent.
V. CHIOTIS: How did you find things at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs? Because we’ve heard a lot about party lines under the previous government, a discredited Diplomatic Service. What’s your general impression?
N. DENDIAS: I will tell you something that has always been true of the Diplomatic Service, before I get more specific. There is the view in Greek society that the Turks are the smart ones, with good foreign policy, and that, historically, Greece hasn’t done well in this area. This isn’t true. The exact opposite is the case. Despite the Ministry’s lack of resources – historically, not just for the past three, four, five, seven years – the limited financial means, the size of the country, the political divisions in the country, the long years involved in reaching consensus on the key parameters, Greek foreign policy has had great triumphs and it has achieved this across party lines, in the sense of not just our party.
Our joining the European Union, the EEC at that time, which was brought about by Kontantinos Karamanlis, was a great triumph. Cyprus’s accession to the EU was also a great triumph for Greece – let’s not kid ourselves. Greece has achieved very important things, and this was based on the Diplomatic Service and people whose job it was, and they were serious professionals. It wasn’t just politicians who achieved these triumphs. There needed to be a basis for this effort.
V. CHIOTIS: In other words, we have good diplomats. Have you seen any political infighting at this ministry?
N. DENDIAS: I’m getting to that. There were problems – let’s be frank. I’d be lying if I said there were no problems. There were problems. There were ways of seeing things that perhaps could have been much better, to put it charitably. The Ministry is on the front line, it is the image Greece projects abroad, and, honestly, what I want to do while I’m here is remedy rather than exacerbate the situation. Nor is there any vindictive spirit or anything else. That kind of thing can’t get far. And the other thing I want to say is that the current Ministry of Foreign Affairs – I mean the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Mitsotakis government – is different from the previous one. Why? Because the whole of the country’s external image is coming here. In other words, the Embassies are being transformed into agencies that will pursue the potential for bringing investments to Greece, and these investments will then be handled by the Develop Ministry. And they will be spaces that try to promote Greece’s image; an image that will be created through these Ministry services.
In other words, through the legislation that will come before Parliament and through the way this government is currently structured, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a much broader role than it did in the days of the previous government. It is taking on and exercising economic diplomacy, supporting it with communication diplomacy.
So we have three things: public diplomacy, which is diplomacy as we have known it until now, economic diplomacy – we understand what that is, but we didn’t exercise it – and communication diplomacy, which supports the other two. Let’s hope we will not only remedy everything that wasn’t done right in the past, or was done in the wrong way, but that we will also be successful in extending the Ministry into the new role the Prime Minister has chosen for us.
V. CHIOTIS: One last question, though I fear I won’t get an answer. But I’ll ask anyway.
N. DENDIAS: You’ve asked a couple of other sly questions. In other words, they’re all sly, but there are levels of slyness.
V. CHIOTIS: So I’ll ask the slyest question. In this dispute between Kotzias and Kammenos, which was dealt with in cabinet meetings, in Parliament – now that you’re in the Ministry, can you see who was right and who was wrong?
N. DENDIAS: I was saddened by this dispute then and I’m saddened now that we’re discussing it again. Because the truth is, both of these are deep institutional offices – those of the Foreign and Defence Ministers.
V. CHIOTIS: It wasn't just a dispute. Serious accusations were made, and we don’t know whether there is anything to them.
N. DENDIAS: The more accusations there were, the greater the institutional burden for the country and for the institutional roles of these two Ministries. Now, beyond that, the issue had gone to the Judiciary. Fortunately, I have no role in this.
V. CHIOTIS: From inside the Ministry, can you tell whether someone was right?
N. DENDIAS: We said you were sly, but there are limits!
V. CHIOTIS: I’m doing what I can, Minister, but you’re not helping.
N. DENDIAS: What you’re asking is far beyond common slyness.
V. CHIOTIS: That you very much, and I wish you every success in your duties.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you, Mr. Chiotis. My warm thanks.
July 25, 2019