JOURNALIST: Hello ladies and gentlemen. You’re watching the "Meeting Point" of "Newsbomb" with our guest, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Nikos Dendias, candidate MP in the regional unit of South Athens.
Welcome and thank you for your hospitality. I guess you should say "welcome" since I am in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
N. DENDIAS: Thank you for the opportunity; we’re in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, a place that belongs to every Greek citizen.
[…] Regarding foreign affairs, one of the reasons I am extremely proud of, is that during these four years, there has not been any of the usual divisive confrontations that have characterized our foreign policy ever since 1822, just after the revolution.
JOURNALIST: And what’s the reason for this?
N. DENDIAS: It’s, first and foremost, due...
JOURNALIST: To the maturity of the parties or to your own ability?
N. DENDIAS: I wouldn't say to my own ability since I never overestimate my own abilities. It is, I believe, due to the constant briefing of the parties and the clear perception - one might say maturity - of nearly the entire political world that the issues are too critical to allow us public division and confrontation to the point of using terms such as "traitors", and "sellouts of national interest".
JOURNALIST: Briefing, therefore a different management. I see what you're saying.
N. DENDIAS: I believe that regarding foreign affairs it is necessary to keep everyone informed. And why so? Because in all other issues, a change of government allows a complete shift in policy.
This cannot occur in international affairs. I signed two Agreements, one with Italy and one with Egypt, and Defence Agreements with the United States. These cannot be changed overnight. Greece is bound by the signature of the Minister of Foreign Affairs in office. As a result, it’s essential to ensure that the vast majority of the political world is informed and consents, to the greatest extent possible.
[…]
JOURNALIST: Let us talk about Greek-Turkish relations. Over a 20-year period, 63 fruitless exploratory contacts were held. You acknowledged the problem and stated that the process should be reviewed in the interesting interview you gave to Apostolos Mangiriadis.
You also stated that if Türkiye accepts the rules of International Law, it could secure its access to the sea. What does that mean, Minister?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. First of all, thank you for your kindness in being interested in what I said.
JOURNALIST: It's my job, you know - anyway.
N. DENDIAS: Yes, yes. Let me tell you the following. First of all, I believe that everyone would agree with what I mentioned regarding the 63 rounds. Having failed in 63 rounds, how do you think you'll succeed in the 64th round with the same rules and the same agenda?
I wish there was a chance, but it's extremely unlikely. Therefore, you should consider how this could have a higher chance of success.
Secondly, Türkiye has a fear. What is it afraid of? Its fear is that Greece is planning - potentially - to block its access to the sea. That is, to create a network of Greek territorial waters, that will prevent Türkiye from having access to the high seas. Of course, we, Greeks, do not understand this fear because we do not intend to act in such a manner.
This is far from the thoughts of anyone in the Greek political system or anyone displaying any sense of seriousness. In other words, even if Greece could do this, it would never do it, because that would be the sufficient and necessary condition for the two countries to go to war at some point in the future.
Also, Greece is a country that actually has the world’s largest merchant naval fleet, even if its ships are flying flags of other countries.
Therefore, the opening of sea routes and communication are very important.
JOURNALIST: A major problem in shipping too. To tell you the truth, that’s exactly what I thought, namely territorial waters. And I'd like to ask you directly whether having "scaled" territorial seas in the Aegean would be a solution. This is not a new concept; it had been on the table and had already been proposed by a government many years ago.
N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you, first of all, that territorial waters as such do not pose a threat in the sense that, of course, there’s a regime of free transit passage, etc. What I would like to see happen is that the Turkish side understands and believes that Greece does not want to impede Türkiye's access to the sea. And from there on, to find ways of implementing what is accepted initially. 12 miles are our inalienable right.
JOURNALIST: Yes, our sovereign right.
N. DENDIAS: The UNCLOS, because I always want to be precise, does not give us 12 miles, it gives us up to 12 miles. That is the wording of UNCLOS.
What does Greece say? Can we initially accept UNCLOS as the legal framework within which to discuss our dispute? Türkiye does not accept it. It should do so though; there is no other way.
If Türkiye does not accept the framework, the discussion cannot continue. If it accepts the framework, even if not in a public discussion, I assure you, that we can find solutions to any reasonable Turkish demand within that framework.
JOURNALIST: Türkiye should accept the framework. I imagine it will have to make other moves, such as the casus belli or the Turkish-Libyan agreement. However...
N. DENDIAS: However, accepting the framework immediately cancels the Turkish-Libyan (agreement); it ceases to exist as a legal construct.
JOURNALIST: Yes, but look, let's say Türkiye accepts it. How do we go to The Hague? How do we delimit the continental shelf if we don't have territorial waters? We are back in the same quagmire.
N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you this. There’s no point in jeopardizing the possibility of a serious rapprochement with a serious Türkiye, if there is one, following the elections, by speaking on camera, even in a debate of the level that you are conducting.
But I can tell you now, after four years of experience, of incredible hours of study and discussions on the Greek-Turkish dispute. I can tell you that I’m convinced that a solution can be reached with a reasonable Türkiye, with a Türkiye that really looks for solutions with Greece and not with a Türkiye that claims sovereignty over half of the Aegean.
Also, I’m absolutely confident and I know that there is a part of the Turkish deep state that sees the advantages that a solution to the Greek-Turkish dispute would have.
Is it the majority? I'm not sure. What are the chances? Not too many, because extreme thoughts and elements from both sides usually prevail.
So, I’m afraid Türkiye might get there. But what I mean is that it would be a grave mistake not to give it a try.
JOURNALIST: However, I asked if the issue of territorial waters is, among other things, at the core of this dispute.
N. DENDIAS: It is for the Turkish side.
JOURNALIST: For us, if we recognize it.
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you; I will answer although I could sidestep. For the Turkish side, the extension of the territorial waters in the entire Aegean Sea to 12 miles has been designated as casus belli. This demonstrates how important this concern is to the Turkish system.
Can the Greek side, without renouncing the core of its right, explain to Türkiye that with UNCLOS and the 12 miles, it can have the same access to the high seas as any other coastline state?
I believe that this tabletop exercise can be resolved.
JOURNALIST: Yes. But, despite the fact that tensions in Greek-Turkish relations have decreased in general, we have seen some flare-ups in recent days. That is, Çavuşoğlu questioned the sovereignty of Greek islands, Erdogan’s TV spot about Thrace and our islands, some of our islands covered with the Turkish flag. How do you evaluate them, and what is your response, given that they are both - accidentally and coincidentally - territorial integrity issues?
N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you; first and foremost, Greece will not accept any questioning of its territorial integrity. This is considered a sine qua non; we have stated that a thousand times.
What wouldn't I want? In the context of Türkiye's self-evident internal electoral tensions – let’s not forget that President Erdogan is fighting for political survival for the first time in his life, his party, the AKP, too - I would not want to transfer domestic political agendas to Greek-Turkish relations. So, I’m very careful to read correctly what is being said for his own audience and what is being sent as a message to us.
Aside from that, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has taken a clear position on any provocation or challenge; this cannot be accepted in any way.
JOURNALIST: What is your opinion about Tayyip Erdogan and what’s your relationship with him? I understand that he was moved by your visit to the affected areas in the neighboring country together with Mr. Çavuşoğlu.
N. DENDIAS: I believe it has always been good. Even at the moments of greatest tension. There’s no point in mentioning specific incidents, but he has always treated me, and I have treated him, with respect and decency.
JOURNALIST: Regarding Albania, what is the case with the special agreement? Will the process move forward at some point?
N. DENDIAS: Yes, it will.
JOURNALIST: When, hopefully?
N. DENDIAS: It will move forward. I believe much sooner than we realize. The Agreement in principle with Albania is something that I am extremely pleased with. I’d even say I’m proud of. Albania agreed in principle, and we must refer to a name here: Edi Rama agreed from the beginning to exactly what we are proposing to Türkiye as well: UNCLOS, rights of the islands, 12 miles, continental shelf, The Hague.
The issue is how all this will be specified in the special agreement for The Hague; we'll have to wait and see what framework of authorization the Albanian President will grant to the Rama government. However, in principle, the agreement is excellent and it can serve as a model for Türkiye as well.
Let us not forget that Edi Rama is President Erdogan’s close ally. Albania is a friendly country to Türkiye. I believe that it can be a friendly country to Greece as well. I do not consider it a zero-sum game.
But Albania agreed; Türkiye's friend, Albania, agreed exactly with what we are proposing to Türkiye. This, in my view, can reassure the deep Turkish state regarding our intentions.
JOURNALIST: Let’s turn to Kosovo. There are two issues. Starting with the most recent: as regards the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, Greece abstained, Cyprus voted against it. This is not the first time we have observed some divergence, at least recently. And I’m asking you directly: does this famous doctrine "Cyprus decides and Greece supports" still apply?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, this was said at other times and concerned the plans for resolving the Cyprus issue, and indeed, I have the feeling, it did not concern the issue of guarantees, which, obviously, primarily concerns Greece since Greece is the guarantor power.
It concerned the internal elements of the resolution of the Cyprus issue. So, if you ask me if the Republic of Cyprus should have the prevailing opinion regarding the internal elements of the resolution, regarding a future plan for resolving the Cyprus issue, I would certainly say yes. After all, they will have to live with it.
In terms of the broader issues of Hellenism, there’s definitely a capital of Hellenism, and that’s the city you are in, Athens.
JOURNALIST: So, there’s what we call coordination and cooperation, regardless of whether the two sides do not agree on everything or do not adopt exactly the same stance, due to a difference in interests?
N. DENDIAS: There is. Allow me to assure you that during the time I had the honor of serving as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, there has not been even a hint of difficulty in our coordination with Cyprus. With Nikos Christodoulides either as Minister in the past or as President now, as well as with Ioannis Kasoulides and with Nicos Anastasiades.
JOURNALIST: There are clearly two periods of tension in Greek-Cypriot relations: the first was in September '19, and the other in the autumn of '20: that’s a fact.
N. DENDIAS: Why are you saying that?
JOURNALIST: Because it’s widely known and it has never been contested.
N. DENDIAS: To be honest, I am surprised you’re saying that. What do you associate it with? I don't recall ever having an issue.
JOURNALIST: I think that the first one was related to a request from Türkiye not to conduct research in the Cypriot EEZ and the second was an agreement between the leaders of the two countries, Greece and Egypt...
N. DENDIAS: Ah, you’re talking about the...
JOURNALIST: …to stop the excessive discussion about "EastMed".
N. DENDIAS: Look, I will answer both. And I will answer with complete honesty. I will not give you a party politics answer or one that a Foreign Minister would give, employing diplomatic language that means absolutely nothing.
There was never a moment in these four years that my communication with Nikos Christodoulides or Ioannis Kasoulides was not open and heartfelt. Culminating in…
JOURNALIST: I did not refer to that anyway.
N. DENDIAS: [...] Regarding what stance we would take in the Council of the European Union, we were always able to communicate, and, most importantly, to communicate with genuine national sincerity.
And I consider that a significant accomplishment of the Greek and the Cypriot governments. And if you will, my close relationship with the President of the Republic of Cyprus attests to this.
It is not a relationship with someone with whom you’ve had rifts and disagreements.
JOURNALIST: I see. Now, let us stay on the topic of Kosovo. You recently went there. Is there a possibility of recognition on the horizon?
N. DENDIAS: Greece has clearly stated that recognition is part of the solution to the Belgrade-Pristina differences. I have made this very clear. Greece tries to play a positive role by encouraging both sides to reach a mutually acceptable solution that is consistent with International Law.
JOURNALIST: So, it’s directly related to this.
N. DENDIAS: Excuse me?
JOURNALIST: If I understand correctly, there’s no issue of recognition as long as this problem is not resolved.
N. DENDIAS: Look, I’m not going to bind Greek foreign policy forever. There will be other Ministers after me, here, who may have their own opinions. As I stated previously, anything the current Foreign Minister says does not bind the country indefinitely.
However, I want to say that this is Greece's position, and I believe it’s the position of nearly the entire political system. We must assist in finding a solution; the Balkans cannot remain unstable indefinitely.
We share significant historical ties with Serbia; perhaps they do not always agree with the way we see things...
JOURNALIST: But they didn't like the "abstention", because the Prime Minister of Serbia canceled her participation in the...
N. DENDIAS: I believe the Prime Minister of Serbia’s reaction was a bit exaggerated. I understand why they’d rather we had voted against but on the other hand, wouldn’t the Kosovars have preferred a "for" vote? So, at this point, Greece maintained a measured stance.
The Council of Europe is not just any international organization; it’s a specialized body, dealing with human rights and access to the Strasbourg Court.
That is where Pristina, based on this argument, developed an overall position. I believe that Greece's "abstention" in both votes was the key position which encourages both Pristina and Belgrade to find a solution.
I’d also like to add something else since you’ve given me the opportunity. It’s wrong to draw analogies between the issue of Kosovo recognition and the occupied territories in Cyprus; that’s a huge mistake. Firstly, there’s a decision of the International Court that completely separates the two issues, right? But I’m saying this for those in the Greek political stage who entrapped…
JOURNALIST: What you’re saying is widely known, but it's important that you repeat it.
N. DENDIAS: ... they entrapped Greek foreign policy in a position that was considered to serve the Greek stance against the pseudo-state of Northern Cyprus. It’s not the same thing; it’s something completely different that must be treated as such.
JOURNALIST: Turning to Sudan, the process of evacuating the trapped Greeks has progressed significantly. I’d like you to tell me when you expect the entire process to be completed, as well as what emotions the EU’s deafening absence as a collective entity from this particular situation evokes for you.
N. DENDIAS: Let me start with the second one, which is simpler and far more unpleasant. I took a direct position at the doorstep statements in Luxembourg the day before yesterday, and I was much tougher inside the Council.
When the European Union asserts a geopolitical role and votes - allow me to say -triumphantly, not to mention with great fanfare, for the "Strategic Compass", it’s unacceptable that it cannot establish the conditions for a joint rescue mission in an African country.
And that each country separately, France, Germany, the Netherlands, and us - Britain is no longer a member of the EU – had to launch and carry out its own operations. And the coordination among us, the coordination with the French, Italians, Germans, and Dutch - which I conducted - demonstrates how much ground there was for European coordination to carry out the operation.
If you only looked at the incredibly high number of phone calls, including with Josep Borrell - who made a tremendous effort and failed, without being responsible for this story though-, as well as the dozens of text messages on my mobile phone with my fellow Ministers to coordinate this story, you would understand how fertile the ground for a joint European effort was.
JOURNALIST: So, you’re saying it could have been done easily?
N. DENDIAS: It had to be done, regardless of how easy or difficult it was, otherwise no one would take us Europeans seriously. I believe in Europe strongly; I believe in it wholeheartedly. But to be honest, such failures only serve the positions of those who believe that Europe is just a common market and nothing more.
Now, regarding Sudan, we have managed to get a large number of Greeks out. Others are still there, the majority of whom are connected to Greece, but do not hold Greek passports, to be honest. In close cooperation with the Hellenic National Defense General Staff, we are organizing a final mission of one of our two aircrafts to Khartoum to evacuate a final group of Greeks or people connected to Greece who would like to leave, provided that conditions allow it in the immediate future.
Things are not easy, not easy at all, but in any case, I think we will manage that too.
[…]
JOURNALIST: Let us conclude Minister, with Greece's candidacy for the Security Council; is it a goal that we will achieve? Are there, in other words, sufficient convergences? We hear that we have secured pledges in writing as well.
N. DENDIAS: We have secured a lot of pledges in writing, 114-115 or so; if there are no tragic mistakes in the future, I believe we will succeed. But my definition of Greek success goes beyond that. We have launched two more campaigns – a first in our history- for the Presidency of the General Assembly and for the Human Rights Council. In terms of enhancing our global standing, I believe that these three campaigns are extremely important.
In general, I believe that Greece’s position in the world has improved over the past four years. These campaigns are the manifestation of this self-confidence.
JOURNALIST: Minister, I thank you very much, and I wish you good luck.
N. DENDIAS: Take care. Thank you very much.
April 27, 2023