V. CHIOTIS: We asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Nikos Dendias, to discuss all these issues with us, and we would like to thank him for accepting the invitation. We have the Minister on the line. Good afternoon, Minister.
N. DENDIAS: Hello Mr. Chiotis and Mr. Papadopoulos. Good afternoon to you and your listeners.
V. CHIOTIS: So, how do you think this situation will develop? Because, we are really used to Turkey’s extreme rhetoric, but, I don't know if you agree with me, I believe President Erdoğan’s statements yesterday went way too far.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Yes, the phrase “as far as I’m concerned, Mitsotakis does not exist” is indeed extreme language.
N. DENDIAS: I would suggest that we focus on the wise – as I believe it is – answer given to President Erdoğan’s statement by the Greek side. I believe there is no reason for us to get into altercations, nor to exchange harsh words, if I may say so.
I think that Greece continues to stand by its well-known positions; the Prime Minister made an exceptional speech before the US Congress – objectively speaking, I am not saying this just because… I have to tell you that his presence gave me a strong sense of pride.
I feel particularly happy to have attended this speech. I do not understand the Turkish reaction. Nothing was said that is outside the boundaries of the established Greek positions.
Beyond that, the Turkish President deemed it necessary to make this statement. That is entirely a matter for him.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Why do you think he made this extreme statement?
N. DENDIAS: You know, I am not going to… If you will allow me to offer some working assumptions in general, I would say that sometimes Turkey negotiates in a peculiar way. It also uses means outside the usual diplomatic practice.
Beyond that, however, it is not up to me to explain President Erdoğan’s statement. We have always referred to all foreign leaders with respect, including President Erdoğan, as befits the Head of State of a foreign country.
V. CHIOTIS: Yes Minister, but this is a new reality now. It's understandable that Greece's Foreign Minister does not want to reply in the same way to Turkish provocations, and I believe this is correct.
But what we have here are coordinated provocative actions. That is, in addition to violations, the series of violations - during one of which Turkish aircraft approached Alexandroupolis within a distance of 2.5 nautical miles, as Notis rightly said – we are seeing an increase in refugee flows, we were informed this morning that approximately 140 migrants attempted to cross our maritime borders and reach the islands of Chios and Lesbos.
And, most importantly, we have an announcement by Turkey that the Greek-Turkish dialogue is suspended. At least this is what we understood from Erdoğan’s statements. So, I would like to ask you, first of all, how will the government react to all this? And secondly, do you have any information that the Greek-Turkish dialogue is being suspended?
N. DENDIAS: Let us take things one at a time. As you rightly said, we do not choose to go down the path of escalation, nor do we choose to react in the way that the other side would impose on us. We have our own policy; we have our own positions. Our positions are absolutely clear and they are reiterated every time in all international fora.
Therefore, we are not going to fall into the trap of escalation at our interlocutor’s preference. If the Greek government decides to escalate, it will do so because it deems it necessary and not because it is being pushed to by another party. Secondly, what you say is entirely correct. The number of violations is unprecedented. I am just going to refer to the 42 overflights over a large Greek island and the approach within a distance of two and a half miles to Alexandroupolis. These are absolutely unacceptable.
These issues have been raised in all international fora, as well as during the visit to the United States. And, believe me they are irretrievably compromising Turkey’s image for doing these things, not Greece’s.
Turkey's actions serve as the ultimate proof of Greek arguments. That is, that we are under threat, the casus belli against Greece is not just hollow words, and Greece faces a threat from Turkey. What Turkey is doing absolutely corroborates what we are saying. Beyond that….
V. CHIOTIS: I asked about the Greek-Turkish dialogue.
N. DENDIAS: First of all, you recognize that, to put it as eloquently as possible, it is difficult to conduct a dialogue against the background of repeated overflights and insults, isn’t it? Since there is nothing scheduled for the immediate future, the Greek side has no reason to take a position now. Whatever choice Turkey makes, it is Turkey’s concern, I'm not going to speculate about Turkey’s attitude.
What I am saying, however, is that if Turkey truly desires a Greek-Turkish dialogue, we have always indicated that we are willing to engage.
We have explained that, despite our differences, our choice is to talk to each other. But, of course, we do not make this choice independently of the conditions. We cannot talk when, for instance, overflights over our islands, either large or small, are carried out at the same time.
V. CHIOTIS: So, in the case these provocations continue, am I right to assume that Greece will also reconsider its participation in this dialogue, even at the level of exploratory talks, which are purely symbolic?
N. DENDIAS: Mr. Chiotis, we would also hope for the exploratory talks not to be symbolic, that they would have a purpose and a subject matter, as their goal is; to result in a mutual understanding that will allow actual negotiations to begin. And finally, if actual negotiations do not yield results, to proceed to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, which I visited last week, and to resolve our dispute over the continental shelf and the Exclusive Economic Zone.
But Greece cannot ignore the climate that Turkey is looking to create, it simply can’t. I do not want to commit Greek policy by making any public statements at this juncture, but I think everyone understands where we currently stand.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Minister, we are surprised, however, by the fact that our allies have not reacted to Mr. Erdoğan’s extreme statements. In fact, Germany continues to provide cutting-edge technology to Turkey. Erdoğan announced the construction of six submarines, at a rate of one per year.
V. CHIOTIS: And he inaugurated the first one.
N. DENDIAS: Which is not operational yet, it will take two years, maybe more, to become operational.
Let's discuss, if you like, the German submarines. First of all, we don't believe that anyone should react in a Pavlovian manner whenever Turkey says something.
I think our allies, at least the vast majority of them, and certainly the United States, have taken a clear stand in the face of Turkish unlawful conduct and revisionism. And I believe the Greek side is entirely satisfied with the US stance, following Prime Minister Mitsotakis' discussion with President Biden at the White House.
With regard to the German submarines, we have always made it clear to the Germans that we consider what they are doing not to be right. We believe it is inappropriate of them to supply a weapon of such capability to a revisionist power.
Because, when Germany agreed to supply these submarines, Turkey was not a revisionist power, or at least it was in the process of coming closer to the European Union. I recall that this deal was made at the end of the first decade of the 2000s.
Turkey was not the same back then. It was the Turkey with which, if you like, we hope to talk to again one day; a Turkey that aspires to come closer the European Union, a Turkey which has differences with Greece, but adheres to the framework of values to which it aspires, the European acquis.
V. CHIOTIS: Yes, but you see, and pardon me for interrupting you.
N. DENDIAS: You may interrupt me as much as you wish. This is not a monologue, for heaven’s sake.
V. CHIOTIS: This does not concern Germany only. It concerns the European Union; it also concerns NATO.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: And Spain, too. You went to talk to the Spaniards.
V. CHIOTIS: Meaning everyone’s eyes look the other way, when Germany provides Turkey with know-how.
N. DENDIAS: Take it one step at a time. We should not keep shooting at various targets at once. We'll simply miss. We’ve got the issue of the German submarines. It's another issue entirely. Much as the F-35 and F-16 fighter jets are two different issues. They are of a different order.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: I imagine the Spanish aircraft carrier is also another matter, isn’t it?
N. DENDIAS: From there on, we have made great efforts with Spain, because I won’t deny that there have been some issues. You may recall that an issue arose during the Spanish Prime Minister, Mr. Sanchez’s visit to Ankara.
But to be quite honest, my Spanish counterpart, Mr. José Albares came to Athens following that visit. And there were consultations with us.
I am not demanding that Spain or anyone else suspend its relations with Turkey tomorrow morning. What we, Greece, are asking European countries to do is to send the same message to Turkey on a constant basis. Furthermore, their dealings with Turkey should not jeopardize Greece's security. This is our demand.
V. CHIOTIS: Earlier today you met with the new US Ambassador, Mr. Tsunis. You handed him a ratified copy of the new US-Greece Agreement.
I’m not sure if you had any discussions in light of the current developments, but I’d like to ask you what, in your opinion, has most frustrated Turkey. Is it the Prime Minister's speech before Congress or the military base in Alexandroupolis?
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Or is it the fact that Mr. Biden has not arranged, you know, a meeting with Mr. Erdogan?
N. DENDIAS: I believe Turkey anticipated that the Russian invasion of Ukraine would result in an overall upgrade of its role, to forgiveness of all its wrongdoings and positions it has taken, and it would also downgrade Greece to a second-tier actor in its relations with the United States.
The fact that this did not occur, but instead Greece, despite circumstances that actually led to Turkey’s geopolitical upgrade due to its geographical location, maintained the level of relations with the US. Not only did it maintain it, but it became evident during Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis’ visit to Washington D.C that Greece retains the superpower’s complete trust as an interlocutor in the wider region that upholds International Law, stability and a principled policy.
I think this has dashed Turkish expectations and created a pervasive sense of frustration in Ankara. What I would like Ankara to do is to abandon this approach and return to a line of reasoning which could eventually lead us to a settlement of our dispute within the framework of International Law.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Before we move on to the issues regarding Albania, I would like to ask you whether you believe the EastMed project is still “alive and kicking” following the visit to the US. Because we can see that Mr. Çavuşoğlu is now in Israel meeting with the Israeli leadership.
V. CHIOTIS: That's clearly why he's going.
N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you that, Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Chiotis, we have no objections to Turkey talking with our friends; on the contrary we welcome it. We are interested in Turkey receiving a message from multiple sides that it has much to gain by joining the the group of rational countries that act in accordance with International Law.
We do not want to exclude Turkey from anything; on the contrary, we want Turkey to be part of the security system of our wider region. But that involves playing by the rules, and not breaking them.
So, if you ask me now about pipelines and energy, I have consistently stated that the pipeline, as such as a pipeline, will be considered on the basis of the economic data. After all, President Biden's adviser Amos Hochstein was present at the meeting with us and I had a separate conversation with him about it shortly afterwards.
But as far as the geopolitical argument is concerned, the answer is provided by the Euro Asia Interconnector project; thus, there is no geopolitical argument regarding the EastMed project for us; it has been answered.
V. CHIOTIS: We don’t have much time left but we cannot fail to discuss...
N. DENDIAS: Thank goodness, Mr. Chiotis, because you’re torturing me.
V. CHIOTIS: We will try not to torture you too much.
N. DENDIAS: No way, you have exactly the opposite in mind; that’s obvious.
V. CHIOTIS: Okay. Well, we saw yesterday in Albania, during your visit, your Albanian counterpart behaving in a way that is inconsistent with this climate of cooperation that we are trying to create. That is to say, I recall the Minister of Energy visiting Albania last week to supply them with electricity, because that was in scarcity, and yesterday...
N. DENDIAS: And he rightly did so.
V. CHIOTIS: Yes, but unexpectedly she has raised an issue which we thought had been long abandoned.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Actually, it’s a non-existent issue.
V. CHIOTIS: So where do we stand with Albania now?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, I believe that regarding this statement, the answer was given on the spot, so that there are no misunderstandings.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: That's true.
N. DENDIAS: But regarding Albania in general, I would advise you to take a close look at the Prime Minister, Mr. Rama’s stance –and I won’t expand on that. Following the meeting with the Prime Minister and the lunch he was kind enough to host, I would describe the visit as extremely successful.
V. CHIOTIS: Isn’t the Albanian Prime Minister in consultation with his Minister?
N. DENDIAS: It’s not my position to get into such details now, that’s for sure.
V. CHIOTIS: So, you don’t consider it a serious incident, do you? Because as you quite accurately noted, they will never join the European Union as long as they raise such issues.
N. DENDIAS: I think that Greece’s response has been given, so that there is no misunderstanding in any part. Beyond that, I don't think that Greek-Albanian relations will be held hostage to this particular issue, which the Greek side, I think rightly, considers to be non-existent.
V. CHIOTIS: Let me ask you in a different way.
N. DENDIAS Didn’t just I say to you that you intend to torture me?
V. CHIOTIS: Just a little more, Minister, we are asking for your patience for two minutes. Is there any chance that the veto on the accession negotiations will be put on the table unless the neighbouring country explicitly commits to not raising again such a non-existent issue, as you described it?
N. DENDIAS: You know, I do not want... When one begins taking a position on hypothetical issues, then one creates a legal...
V. CHIOTIS: No, I call it “establishing firm rules”.
N. DENDIAS: Furthermore, one also places their interlocutor in an awkward position that is unnecessary.
Albania has made a significant choice at least under Prime Minister Rama. What is that choice? It is the European Union, the European law, the European acquis and, consequently, partnership with Greece. That is its established policy.
And one should see the broad policy lines and the firm positions in one’s policies. And Albania is consistent with them. It agreed with us to refer our issue to the International Court of Justice in The Hague under the rules of International Law.
This has not yet occurred because the President has not granted the Prime Minister the relevant authorization. Evidently, Albania will elect a new President within the next two or three months. So, all of this will be feasible from then on.
Honestly, this is what I retain from the Albanian position, as well as Albania’s general policy line with regard to the European Union’s decisions concerning both the Cyprus issue and Turkey.
Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Chiotis, Albania has complied with all the decisions. It has complied with all of them, despite the fact that it has not yet been granted the specific status that would compel Albania to do so. It has complied with all the decisions.
So, we, in Greece, should not buy into stereotypes; instead, we should look at the full and clear picture and give our interlocutor time to adapt.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Good, one last question. After all these developments, do you anticipate a hot summer? In any event, is there a telephone line, a red telephone line through which we can talk with the Turks if we get all of this out of the way?
N. DENDIAS: Look, I want to be frank with you. This is not the best phase in Greek-Turkish relations which is unfortunate. And as you mentioned, following the meeting with President Erdogan in Istanbul and that informal lunch, I expected Turkey to enter a phase of de-escalation - if anything else-, both in the Aegean and in its rhetoric. The Greek side’s expectations were not fulfilled though.
Beyond that, we cannot predict Turkish unlawful conduct. We can say only one thing, that we will not tolerate any unlawful conduct. We will always stick to our firm positions, we will defend International Law, we will defend the European acquis and we will make Turkish unlawful conduct known on the international stage and to our European partners, friends and allies, so that they realize that Greece is a country that is under threat.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: And is there a red telephone line? Do the military staffs talk with each other?
N. DENDIAS: You'll have to ask the Military Staff; I cannot tell you myself. If you ask me about Mr. Çavuşoğlu, of course I have his mobile phone number and, of course, we talk about a number of issues, but I don't call it a red telephone line. It is not a crisis management mechanism. It is the mobile phone of a man whom I have known for 20 years.
V. CHIOTIS: Minister, thank you very much for the discussion we've had.
N. DENDIAS: Take care, goodbye.
N. PAPADOPOULOS: Have a good afternoon.
May 24, 2022