Interview of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias, in the Athens daily Kathimerini, with journalist Vassilis Nedos (5 January 2020)

JOURNALIST: Since the day Turkey escalated tensions in the Eastern Mediterranean, you have been running a diplomatic marathon, mainly in the region, but also beyond the region. Is it getting results?

N. DENDIAS: Greece is a country that consistently pursues dialogue, good neighbourly relations and cooperation among the states of the region. These are fundamental prerequisites for prosperity and stability in our turbulent corner of the world. However, when our neighbouring country exhibits conduct that violates international legality, we have to take the necessary measures. And this is the framework for all of the important diplomatic initiatives we have taken of late. Initiatives that have clearly gotten results. Our positions have received public support from the EU, the U.S., Russia, Egypt, Israel, Gulf countries and elsewhere. These positions are enshrined in international law, and this is exactly what we stress to our partners, with whom we are in ongoing contact. In contrast, Turkey’s positions have met with complete condemnation, and the whole of the international community sees them as being outside the framework of international law. You know, Mr. Nedos, arbitrary and illegal actions have limited prospects, and in the end, Turkey, through its constant provocations, has succeeded in isolating itself and being regarded as a rogue state in a region that, now more than ever, needs positive initiatives to consolidate security and stability. I think it’s time Turkey realised that it’s in its own interests to alter course. We are open to Turkey’s participating in all of our initiatives.

JOURNALIST: We often say Turkey has constant goals in its foreign policy. Beyond its effort to limit Turkey’s aspirations, does Greece have a long-term, non-partisan foreign policy?

N. DENDIAS: Just ask yourself, beyond what we hear from time to time about Turkish and Greek foreign policy, what has each of these policies achieved? Cyprus’s accession to the EU -and without prior settlement of the Cyprus issue- is one of the greatest achievements of Greek diplomacy. At the same time, our country has emerged as an unquestionable pillar of stability in the Balkan and Southeastern Mediterranean region – a trusted partner of the international community of states. It is working actively and methodically to achieve conditions of prosperity, growth and regional stability. A fact that has been recognised by our international partners. In contrast, Turkey, which pursued zero problems with its neighbours, has created problems with all of its neighbours, without exception. Greece is emerging from a major crisis and is returning to the international stage with self-confidence, shaping a new national vision and redefining its role as a member of the hard core of the EU and NATO. So, I am pleased to see that, in spite of certain differences, there is a non-partisan approach to the key directions of our foreign policy. And this is vital capital that the Mitsotakis government is using and will continue to use – in a spirit of consensus and national unity – in meeting the challenges our homeland is facing.

JOURNALIST: Do you think we are likely to delimit EEZs with countries such as Italy and Egypt, which whom we have been in relevant talks for a number of years?

N. DENDIAS: After meetings with my Italian and Egyptian colleagues, Mr. Di Maio and Mr. Shoukry, we agreed to pick up the thread of the relevant negotiations. As you know, the first round was already held with Italy, in Rome. Similar talks between technical teams will take place with Egypt in the coming days, here in Athens. These talks are being carried out at a favourable time with friendly countries that, like us, want to reach a friendly understanding. Moreover, all of the sides recognise the tangible benefits that will accrue from reaching agreements on delimitation. So, we are working in this direction and we will continue to do so, because it is our firm position to pursue such agreements with all of the countries in our region, based always on international law. So, in answer to your question, there is clearly a prospect of delimitation with these countries.

JOURNALIST: A few months ago, Greece and the U.S. signed the revised protocol of the Defence Agreement that has governed their defence relations for the past 30 years. In a few hours, you will be in the U.S., accompanying the prime minister. What can Greece expect from the U.S. in the face of Turkey’s provocations?

N. DENDIAS: It is obvious that the Turkish violations of the international law of the sea and the destabilisation they are causing in the Eastern Mediterranean run contrary to the vital interests of the U.S. and many of Washington’s strategic partners. This is why they have repeatedly condemned Turkey’s provocations. I take this opportunity to remind you of the statement made by the U.S. Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, during his visit to Athens, after our meeting, sending the message to Ankara that illegal drilling is unacceptable. What Greece is contributing to the equation is its position as a pillar of stability, predictability and reliability in the region. I think our allies on the other side of the Atlantic are aware of the importance of safeguarding peace and stability and eliminating illegal or arbitrary actions in a region where the factors for instability are multiplying. A few days ago, the EastMed Act was passed. I think this very important development reflects the increased importance our American friends attach to our region.

JOURNALIST: How does Athens plan to deal with the faits accomplis Ankara is attempting to create in the Eastern Mediterranean?

N. DENDIAS: Illegal actions do not create faits accomplis, for the simple reason that they produce no legal effects. In the end, international legality prevails. As you know, we are in ongoing contact and consultation with all of our partners and the friendly countries in the region, who are also concerned at Turkey’s illegal actions in the Eastern Mediterranean. During my recent visits to a number of Arab countries, I found that they share our very valid concerns regarding the impact of specific conduct on security and stability in our region. In fact, some states made public and written protests to this effect to the UN. Greece has firmly supported -sometimes virtually on its own- the European orientation of its neighbour, because we believe that a European Turkey is in everyone’s interest, and first and foremost in the interest of Turkey itself. I would like to take this opportunity to note that, sadly, due to Turkey’s own choices, this perspective has weakened. Our diplomatic campaign will continue unabated. On Thursday we signed, with Cyprus and Israel, the historic agreement on the EastMed pipeline, a long-term project that will change the European energy map and, at the same time, enhance the geopolitical equilibrium in the region. Still to come are a number of contacts, meetings and visits of the prime minister and myself, and we think these meetings will further strengthen our diplomatic tools against the illegal and arbitrary actions that Ankara is unfortunately carrying out.

JOURNALIST: Just a few days ago, the agreement on the EastMed pipeline was signed. This is one of the examples of close cooperation with Israel. Given the political instability that has prevailed for nearly a year in Israel, could this decade-old political relationship be impacted if a new government comes to power this March?

N. DENDIAS: Our relations with Israel are strategic and extend into numerous sectors beyond that of energy. Athens has an excellent level of understanding and cooperation with Israel, and both sides are investing in the further deepening of their cooperation. Nothing will change in this regard – there or here – as a result of any political changes provided for in a democratic system of government. The EastMed pipeline is a peak moment in our cooperation, with geopolitical significance that transcends domestic political developments. It is an economically viable endeavour that will provide a safe destination for the Eastern Mediterranean energy deposits, and it will enhance Europe’s energy security while also making our country an important energy hub. And I’m not just talking about the existing deposits. I remind you that the region has drawn the interest of global energy giants due to the prospects it offers as a very promising source of energy. However, no choice in this sector is dictated solely by economic considerations. Last week the prime minister of Israel, Mr. Netanyahu, was in Athens, and we had the opportunity to exchange views with him on ways to further expand our cooperation, capitalizing on the positive dynamic imparted to our relations in recent years.

JOURNALIST: What will happen if Turkey acts on its threats and, based on the provisions of the agreement with the government in Tripoli, moves ahead with surveys and drilling south of Crete?

N. DENDIAS: I’ll say it one more time. We have a constitutional duty to defend our national sovereignty with all of our power and all legal means. The fact that Greece reacts to provocations with composure must not be misinterpreted as a lack of resolve or will to do our self-evident duty. In any event, I hope it doesn’t come to that, because I am convinced that Turkey is fully aware that it would not be in anyone’s interest.

JOURNALIST: Recourse to The Hague has re-entered the public discourse recently. Is this a realistic scenario or is it just back on the table because of the renewed tensions in the Eastern Mediterranean?

N. DENDIAS: As you rightly said, it is back in the public debate. But this isn’t the first time it has been discussed. Let’s make something clear. Greece does not fear international justice, because we are convinced of the legality and fairness of our positions. We are countering gunboat policy with the policy of international law. It is in the DNA of our foreign policy. Certainly, a substantial outcome from recourse to the International Court in The Hague requires an agreement between the two countries that sets out the matter on which the Court will be called to make a ruling. In any case, we are not there yet. There need to be talks and communication between the two sides. The channels of communication must be kept open. The political consultations between officials of the two ministries of foreign affairs are expected to start again in the coming days. This is a useful channel, and I hope we can capitalize on it. But there is no doubt that the climate is strained, and this doesn’t help. The other side needs to realise that, through its stance, it is acting counterproductively, undermining security and stability in the region as well as the prospects for dialogue. I hope Turkey abandons the tactic of provocations and seizes this opportunity for a true relaunching of our relations, as has been the Mitsotakis government’s will from the outset.

JOURNALIST: In a broader context, do you see the talks on the Cyprus problem starting again?

N. DENDIAS: We are always ready to respond to any initiative from the UN Secretary-General for settlement of the Cyprus problem. The Cyprus problem is a top national priority for us. In coordination and cooperation with the Republic of Cyprus, we are working on all levels for the relaunching of the talks. That is our goal, so that the year that just began can be a milestone for the termination of the Turkish military occupation of Cyprus and the elimination of the anachronistic system of guarantees.

JOURNALIST: Sending Turkish troops to Libya is another step in a wider strategy. However, due to the Turkish-Libyan agreement, the country most threatened by this is Greece. Might it be the case that the usual analysis of Turkey's actions in the region is no longer adequate and we need to reorient Greece’s strategy against its eastern neighbour?

N. DENDIAS: Old Ottoman visions expressed by contemporary Turkey have no place in 21st-century reality. They do not concern Greece alone. They are also a source of serious concern for the countries of the EU, the Gulf region, the Middle East and North Africa. The rampant expansionism Turkey appears to be attempting, whether by illegal force or as the self-styled protector of Muslims everywhere, looks to be leading Turkey to international isolation. Mr. Nedos, international relations in the modern era are governed by international law, not gunboats. Greece is making no claims, but neither will it make any concessions on matters of its sovereignty or sovereign rights. Greece remains a proponent of dialogue. It wants to have a modern and thriving Turkey as its neighbour. It supports Turkey’s European perspective. But it is planning and foreseeing alternative scenarios based on multiple variables.

The real question is whether Turkey will continue to want the western modernization and European perspective that necessarily run through the path of good neighbourly relations and international legality. We could have a very different relationship with Turkey. Our people like each other and have a lot in common, including the importance we both attach to hospitality. I was in Turkey over Christmas and I was welcomed very warmly by people I met in the streets and restaurants of Istanbul, and I think these relations – the relations between our people – hold some valuable lessons that could lead to better understanding and communication.

JOURNALIST: Athens has been very close to Paris lately. However, on the EU level we are seeing some general declarations, but not a lot more from the other partners regarding Turkey’s provocations. At the same time, there are direct talks regarding Libya between European countries and Turkey, while Greece does not have a place in the Berlin process regarding issues that concern it directly as a power in the region. What do our partners have to say about this?

N. DENDIAS: Our relations with France are traditionally very good, and in the given state of affairs our cooperation framework has been enhanced in many sectors. We share common values as well as interests and outlooks on a number of issues. Moreover, France’s stance was and is clear regarding both the Libya issue and Turkey’s illegal actions in Cyprus. Similarly, the stance of our other partners and allies, as well as that of the EU as a whole, rose to the circumstances, as important decisions were taken, showing the EU’s practical solidarity with Greece and Cyprus and the Union’s resolve to effectively deal with the provocations made against its member states.

Regarding the Berlin process, we have established effective channels of communication with most of the states participating in this initiative, which enables us to express our positions in a targeted manner. Greece certainly has a role to play, and this was the reason for my visit to Benghazi, where I had talks with Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar. Greece wants to contribute to the political resolution of the problem, and this is why we have asked – as the prime minister stated – to participate in the Berlin process, the consultations on which started long before our government took office in July 2019. Due to our proximity and the fact that we are an EU member state directly affected by the developments in Libya, we have every reason to participate in the initiatives for the resolution of the Libyan crisis.